TR Forums

I'd like to spend around $200 (strict budget) on a GPU(s) to add to the fold. Power consumption not withstanding, would it be better (meaning more PPD) to buy 2x $100 video cards like this OC'd by 100MHz 9600GT or would it be better to get a single $200 vid card like this 9800GTX+ which is actually only $144 if you think you are going to actually get the rebate. The budget is strict enough that even if I get the rebate and bring that 9600GT down to $75, 3x would be $225 which is pushing beyond what I am realistically willing to pay ($200 was a stretch already) but if the PPD is enough, might be willing to push it that far. But then that opens up the question where would 4x 9500GT's get me (for a total of $212? I would be putting the cards in separate computers, so SLI is not an issue.

It looks as though there's no nVidia card that's around the $200 mark as the next step up from the 9800GTX+ would be the GTX260 and thats $239 which is 40 dollars out of the budget. Also, are ATI cards even worth looking at when it comes to PPD?

Is there a PPD cart out there that has current cards on it that show PPD? I wasn't kidding when I said TR should be putting a PPD chart in every vid card review.

don't quote me on this but I thought that the ATI cards produced better PPD because they generally have higher shader clocks (i think)

That and they also use GDDR5 rather then GDDR3 (or atleast the 4870 model does, i think the 4850 still uses GDDR3)

I'm in the UK but I can get a 4850 for about 100 pounds which is roughtly 140 dollars

That's what we need, a PPD CPU + GPU chart!

Here's a link to a post on the Folding Forum about PPD for various nVidia cards. There may be one for ATi cards in the appropriate subforum, but everything I've seen leads me to believe they're not currently competitive.

It looks like the chart hasn't been updated since early July 2008, and as output has declined significantly since then on my machines because of new folding cores, new projects and who knows what else, you can't rely on the numbers as valid any more, but I would expect that the figures are still useful measures of relative performance among the listed models.

Thanks for that chart link, RD. Its pretty patchy on numbers but I think I have a plan now. Since I have 5 or 6 windows computers that could all run a lower or mid-end 8800 series card very easily 24x7 it looks like, if I am reading that chart correctly, I could theoretically get another ~24k ppd for a little over $200 ebay dollars (judging by current bids on cards). Plus buying a single $30 or $40 card every week to 2 weeks might fall under the wife-RADAR. (wish me luck)

I haven't looked on eBay in quite a while... what are "ebay dollars"? I think I saw someone use that term somewhere before now. I've become somewhat mistrustful of used things bought from a place like eBay. I like being able to return something without hassle as Newegg allows me to do, even when I let it sit in the corner for 2 weeks before testing it.

Good luck, though.

Okay about ATI Vs. Nvidia.

For low end cards, get Nvidia, they definitely out do anything that is currently offered by ATI, mainly because they aren't much improvement compared to the 3850 which is used for benchmarking, and thus sit around the 1.5k ppd area.

However, if you did have the money, it might be best to think twice about choosing Nvidia over ATI. Sure the GTX 260 gets 7-9k ppd, and the HD 4870 only gets 4-5k, but its important to understand how points are assigned.

The benchmark machine is a Radeon HD 3850, points are determined so that no matter what WU the 3850 does, it will get 1.5k ppd per day. For instance all those 511 point WU's the 3850 will do three per day or so. Pretty basic, yes?

Now, Nvidia does well because the current range of WU's are in-efficient on ATI gpus. All gpu work units are very small at the moment, (You know how when you select WU size, you have the option of small, medium, or large? There only are small WU's and a few medium ones out yet) this is due to the GPU client still being early days. So Nvidia cards are essentially optimized for this kind of WU, they have a smaller amount of fast shaders. This is compounded by the fact that the ATI client has huge in-efficiencies so that it can't use any more shaders than were on the HD 3870.

So where am I going with this.

1. Once larger WUs are released, ATI gpus will do much better as they are more suited to this with the greater amount of shaders. Nvidia gpus will actually slow down and earn less points because the benchmark 3850 will do better.
2. The ATI client still has a lot of optimization to do. I have a HD 4870, its ppd has gone from around 3k to about 5k with the newest client and the largest WU. CPU usage has dropped from maxing out a core to using only 25%. Nvidia has already done pretty much all the optimization they can do client wise. (Remember how much they marketed CUDA with folding, they put in a lot more effort than ATI did with folding) Basically this is the idea, the HD 4870 has 800 shader processors, the HD 3870 has only 320. Thats about 2.5k performance if it can all be accessed. So do the math, 4 or 5 times 2.5 is 10-12.5k ppd! Of course this is over optimistic but it obviously shows there is more power in the HD 4870 for folding than is recognized.
3. Theoretically ATI gpus have much greater number crunching power, 1.2 t flops for the 4870, compared to 500-600 g flops for the GTX 260-280.

Thats about it, now all we have to do is wait for new ATI clients to get their job done...

HurgyMcGurgyGurg wrote:

[Talk about AMD better than Nvidia in the future...]

The problem is that, at the slow rate that Stanford seems to be moving, we may be up to the HD 6xxx before we see that happen. Who knows what Nvidia has in store for that timeframe? This again comes down to buying for future or buying for the present.

The problem is that, at the slow rate that Stanford seems to be moving, we may be up to the HD 6xxx before we see that happen. Who knows what Nvidia has in store for that timeframe? This again comes down to buying for future or buying for the present.

I'll admit I'm being an optimist here. I tried to gauge my answer to address these facts, I guess I wasn't clear.

To re-iterate my points.

Were buying for folding here, not gaming, your going to want to keep hardware for as long as possible, thus, total points over the lifetime of the gpu matter much more than ppd right now. Sure new hardware will come out, but that doesn't negate the fact that you still bought out of value, and what you bought will still be producing along side your new farm.

Now as to Stanford's slow rate. Stanford is much, much, more excited about GPU folding than the SMP client. GPU2 clients are only 6 months old. They have already had a great deal of improvement. Not to mention both ATI and Nvidia work actively with Stanford so they can use folding as bragging rights. Some (questionably authoritative) articles quote an early 2009 launch for the improvements to ATI clients, and following Mhouston (Who is the main AMD partner in the ATI folding forum) he has been hinting at larger improvements from integrating new CAL DLLs and clients for quite some time.

Sure I'm talking long term but its a lot shorter than you may think. And when your buying for something like folding, its all about long term value of the product, and for certain Nvidia ppd will go down on current cards and ATI ppd will go up.

Have you looked at the 4830?

they can be had for around a $100, or ($85-$90 after mir)

Well, I meant "ebay dollars" strictly in the sense that nothing is certain until the hammer falls on an auction. For instance, I bid on a card this morning that when I bit was $31, then I bid it up to $45, the auction ended at $70+$10 shipping. (which is an insane price for the card). I am watching several other auctions for the same type of card that are all near or below the $30 mark, but given the outcome of this one, and the insanity of the people bidding on them, I will probably not be getting those either. So, I might just have to be happy with 2 or 3 new low to mid-range cards at or under $100. We'll see.

As far as ATi vs. nVidia, I tend to agree with the "buy for now" theory as nothing in the future is certain. If I were buying a card for gaming, it would be a 4800 series card. But currently, it sounds like nVidia has the PPD, and I want to contribute the most that my small wallet will allow.

Check out the Specials/Open Box tab at NewEgg. They have two different 9800GTs for $90.00

I have picked up 5 or 6 Open Box PCI-E 8800 GTS & GT Video Cards and have had no problem with them.

You really have to dedicate a lot of time to watching and bidding if you want to get a killer deal going the EBay route.

I just put in a bid on a pair of 8800GT's but its going to end in over 7 days, heh. Guess I'll be waiting a while. (probably wont get them either since its kind of a lowball)

That 4850 deal in the hot deals section looked enticing as well.

Shinare wrote:

I just put in a bid on a pair of 8800GT's but its going to end in over 7 days, heh. Guess I'll be waiting a while. (probably wont get them either since its kind of a lowball)

That 4850 deal in the hot deals section looked enticing as well.

Be sure to verify that the 4850 is supported by the GPU client.

HurgyMcGurgyGurg wrote:

Okay about ATI Vs. Nvidia.

For low end cards, get Nvidia, they definitely out do anything that is currently offered by ATI, mainly because they aren't much improvement compared to the 3850 which is used for benchmarking, and thus sit around the 1.5k ppd area.

However, if you did have the money, it might be best to think twice about choosing Nvidia over ATI. Sure the GTX 260 gets 7-9k ppd, and the HD 4870 only gets 4-5k, but its important to understand how points are assigned.

The benchmark machine is a Radeon HD 3850, points are determined so that no matter what WU the 3850 does, it will get 1.5k ppd per day. For instance all those 511 point WU's the 3850 will do three per day or so. Pretty basic, yes?

Now, Nvidia does well because the current range of WU's are in-efficient on ATI gpus. All gpu work units are very small at the moment, (You know how when you select WU size, you have the option of small, medium, or large? There only are small WU's and a few medium ones out yet) this is due to the GPU client still being early days. So Nvidia cards are essentially optimized for this kind of WU, they have a smaller amount of fast shaders. This is compounded by the fact that the ATI client has huge in-efficiencies so that it can't use any more shaders than were on the HD 3870.

So where am I going with this.

1. Once larger WUs are released, ATI gpus will do much better as they are more suited to this with the greater amount of shaders. Nvidia gpus will actually slow down and earn less points because the benchmark 3850 will do better.
2. The ATI client still has a lot of optimization to do. I have a HD 4870, its ppd has gone from around 3k to about 5k with the newest client and the largest WU. CPU usage has dropped from maxing out a core to using only 25%. Nvidia has already done pretty much all the optimization they can do client wise. (Remember how much they marketed CUDA with folding, they put in a lot more effort than ATI did with folding) Basically this is the idea, the HD 4870 has 800 shader processors, the HD 3870 has only 320. Thats about 2.5k performance if it can all be accessed. So do the math, 4 or 5 times 2.5 is 10-12.5k ppd! Of course this is over optimistic but it obviously shows there is more power in the HD 4870 for folding than is recognized.
3. Theoretically ATI gpus have much greater number crunching power, 1.2 t flops for the 4870, compared to 500-600 g flops for the GTX 260-280.

Thats about it, now all we have to do is wait for new ATI clients to get their job done...

This is one of the most insightful posts I've ever read about GPU folding. I knew the ATI client was unoptimized, but only using 320 shaders?! That fact blew my mind. I've been wondering why my HD4870 only puts out a little more PPD than my old HD2900XT. When this folding power is unleashed it will put a stomping on the Green Team.

Well, someone has already outbid me on the pair of 8800GT's which I thought wouldn't happen until at least 12 hours left on the auction, not 5 days, heh. So I'll just take this as a sign to consider the cheaper 4850's on newegg. I wont be getting 4 or 5 of them, but maybe in the long run after Stanford gets the ati stuff right it will be worth it.