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Is TOO much airflow bad for an engine ?

Yes
14 (58%)
No
10 (42%)
 
Total votes: 24
 
The_Bronx_10451
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Can TOO MUCH AIR FLOW be bad for an engine ??...SEE INSIDE

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:53 pm

I was installing my Cone Filter on my Jeep today, when my Son asked me an interesting question about engine airflow.

Maybe someone here can answer his question ?


While improved airflow "Helps an engine breathe" . . . what would happen if you placed a high velocity fan in the duct work in between the cone filter and the air intake?

This fan would "PULL" air into the cone filter...while at the same time, "BLOW" more air into the intake tubing.

Due to the increased air flow in the intake, the air would cool down also.

A high output 12volt fan could be found, right?


That was his question.

He loves this forum and will be reading your replies.

Thanks,
Craig
 
Captain Ned
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:58 pm

No. You're describing an externally-powered super- or turbo-charger. Anything that compresses the incoming air charge (as your fan would do) will, through Boyle's Law, cause its temperature to increase.
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UberGerbil
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:09 pm

Yeah, if you're compressing a larger volume of air into the same space you're going to heat it up -- that's why turbos have intercoolers. And more air with the same amount of gas will mean you're running the engine lean, which tends to make it run hotter still (at least until it gets so lean you stop getting combustion). You're actually unlikely to get much of compression out of an ordinary 12V fan, but if you did you'd want to make the mixture richer, in which case you'd get more horsepower... just like a supercharger or turbo. But there's a reason they don't run electric superchargers.

As an aside, running cooler isn't really a good thing. Engines have an efficient operating temperature, and if you get so much airflow over the engine that it can't reach that temperature you get more pollution, less power, etc. This is actually a problem with aircooled piston aircraft engines: on descents, when they aren't producing a lot of power, the flow of air over the engine can overcool them and cause cracking in the metal due to thermal fatigue; the overcooled engine may also have problems producing power quickly at the end of the descent (when you might seriously need it for a go-around, etc). For this reason many aircraft have "cowl flaps" that can be closed to block off much of the airflow, allowing the engine to remain warm. (There's another problem with carb icing, but that relates to moisture and temperature of the air, and not just airflow).
 
The_Bronx_10451
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:21 pm

He also asked me another question, that I totally forgot about.

Is there any way to place a fan ore something in the air intake tube to make it sound like a turbine engine( jet sound), that would increase in sound as you gave the engine more throttle.

He thinking is ... since the engine sucks more air in under acceleration, the fan(or turbine blade ???) in the tube would spin faster... causing a jet sound.

I know nothing about this stuff, so I cant really answer him truthfully.

I think he wants to make a jet sound under his hood with this type of air induction.

He also got a jeep for his 16th birthday.

I wont let him type on this computer...since he downloads too much crap that bogs down the memory.


He DOES read this forum though.


What can he put in the airtube or whatever to achieve this jet sound effect?


Thanks,
Craig
Last edited by The_Bronx_10451 on Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SNM
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:23 pm

Wait, you're actually willing to let your son make his vehicle noisier?
Please, for the love of all things holy, don't.
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cass
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:26 pm

Yep, pretty much an electric supercharger... plenty of them on ebay that provide like 1 or 2 psi boost at idle.

Just go to ebay and type in supercharger. I see one that costs $138.00

The problem is that engines use Huge volumes of air and a 12 volt fan is mostly worthless and won't last long. I mean its OK for a small temporary boost, but if you want real 50%+ increases you have to start belt/gear driving the things and it takes 20-100 hp just to drive the charger and then you really need an aftercooler to get good efficiency, and most likely 50% larger injectors, new exhaust, new transmission, new drive shaft, new rear differential, and new radiator to keep the monster cool.

The best thing going for a supercharger is a 6psi or so boost that eliminates all altitude performance loss in all but extreme cases. A real advantage and doesn't require much modding.
 
computron9000
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:27 pm

I had a friend once with a car that was pretty much totalled. He decided to remove the air intake tube from the air filter, attach an extension, and secure it underneath the front of the car with a mesh screen on it. A sort of forced air induction. I would not reccomend this, but it certainly changed the growl of the engine.
 
The_Bronx_10451
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:28 pm

Not with a loud exhaust, or speakers . . .

I told him IF he can generate that jet sound, he can use it on his Jeep.

I'm kinda curious how it would sound, myself.
LOL

See what you can come up with for him.

I just have to see THIS, project happen.
 
Captain Ned
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:34 pm

The_Bronx_10451 wrote:
What can he put in the airtube or whatever to achieve this jet sound effect?

A copy of Fast 'n' Furious? :wink:

Yes, I kid. The sound he's really looking for can only come from true turbo-charged engines. He's looking for the sound made by the blow-off valve found in all turbo air intakes. When you let up on the gas pedal on a turbo motor the induction system is still pressurized, but that pressure has nowhere to go (the throttle is closed). So, it goes out the blow-off valve. Most of these recirculate the blown-off air back into the air intake system, mainly to reduce noise levels. Aftermarket blow-off valves vent the overpressure to the atmosphere so that the engine makes that farty/blarty noise at every gearshift (assuming the average ricer pilot knows what a clutch pedal is).
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
The_Bronx_10451
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:52 pm

No....

He wants a TRUE F 14 Jet sound !

This idea . . .

http://www.therecordist.com/assets/soun ... xiBy01.mp3
 
Darkmage
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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:53 pm

They actually make a product that simulates the noise of a blow-off valve. I kid you not. It's pathetic.

I sounds more like what your son wants is a variant of a whistle. Something that bleeds some of the air going by the intake and produces noise with it. Be advised that doing so will decrease performance, as you're taking air away from the engine in order to make the noise.

For god's sake, don't let him buy a fart muffler.

In regards to your original question (can too much air flow be bad for an engine): The answer is "No, up to a point." If you increase the air flow into your engine, your engine computer will sense the increased amount of air and add more fuel to keep the mixture at the optimum ratio of fuel to air. More air = more fuel added by the engine = more horsepower. That's true up to the point where you max out your fuel delivery system. At that point, you can't add any more fuel and you screw up the ratio.

If you look at most supercharger kits (I'm familiar with Mustang kits) you'll see that the basic kits include neither new fuel injectors nor a remapped engine control unit (ECU) to handle the new airflow. That is because at the basic level, the existing fuel delivery system can handle the new air. If you look at the high end kit, it will include a stronger fuel pump, bigger injectors and a chip to adjust the car's fuel tables.
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Gandolf
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:37 am

ok the way you seem to be wanting to do things is with parts sitting around. so let me say right away do not stick a fan in you intake tubing.

electric superchargers on ebay have been tested to actually lower your horsepower.
not to mention using plastic fans cause the engine to literaly suck the fan into the engine.....not a good thing at all
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:24 am

Too much air can definitely be bad, I've seen a few pics where the boost was set too high and the head and block violently separated.

That said... don't.

As for the jet engine sound... get a turbocharged engine and do a "mufflerectomy" on it. That's the closest you're gonna get on a piston engine.

Then again, with your tuning style, I'm not certain that a turbocharged engine would be a good idea... :-?
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FroBozz_Inc
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:47 am

Captain Ned wrote:
So, it goes out the blow-off valve. Most of these recirculate the blown-off air back into the air intake system, mainly to reduce noise levels. Aftermarket blow-off valves vent the overpressure to the atmosphere so that the engine makes that farty/blarty noise at every gearshift (assuming the average ricer pilot knows what a clutch pedal is).


Heh, when I got my car at first I wanted one of those. Then I started noticing how annoying that gets by driving near other cars that had 'em and going to autocross races where people had them. After every damn shift it gets pretty annoying IMHO. So I decided to just stick with my recirculating BOV. There's that Pissshhahh! sound, but it's not so freaking loud. My car's alrady loud enough with no muffler anyway 8)
 
steelcity_ballin
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:58 am

The whistles go WOOOO..... it's that WOOO WOOO!

Get him a whistle tip :lol:
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:21 am

Honestly, I think this is a pretty sweet sounding setup:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... flerectomy

It sounds even better on a TDI with a VNT (Variable Nozzle Turbo - read: 98 New Beetles, 99.5 Jettas and Golfs and newer). A friend of mine has a 2000 Bug with a mufflerectomy... the sound when he's decelerating... :o

No real benefit to the engine, although some say that it makes the turbo spool faster. The turbo quiets the diesel clatter a lot, so a muffler isn't necessary for noise control.
Last edited by bhtooefr on Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nimrod_Long
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:23 am

You could go with a Timing Gear Drive . Ive heard a couple of cars with them on and they sound alot like a turbo.
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bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:25 am

Nimrod_Long wrote:
Important Note: Accu-Drive Gear Drives are not recommended for use above 7,000 rpm or on computer-controlled vehicles with knock sensors.


We're talking about a modern Jeep, I think. ;)

Besides, I see nothing for either the DCX Hemis or the AMC I6s. (Not sure what engine we're dealing with here...)

Edit: Found a video/audio clip of a VNT TDI w/mufflerectomy... but, they don't really give the turbo a chance to spool down. Still, the spooling up on start is wicked cool. This one is modified in other ways, which is the cause of the smoke.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... flerectomy
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Corrado
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:44 am

And actually, the VW V10 TDI uses 'electric' turbos as well. They aren't true turbos, so some places do use a sort of electric supercharger.
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:58 am

Well, I looked that up... I understand that to be the VNT mechanism is electrically actuated rather than vacuum actuated. The turbo is still spooled using exhaust gases.

On most TDIs, the VNT mechanism is actuated using vacuum. If a vacuum line is leaking (this has happened many a time before, causing over or underboost, and therefore limp mode), the VNT isn't properly actuated. Also, response times aren't QUITE as quick as they could be.

On this vehicle, the VNT mechanism is actuated using a motor. Everything's instant.

For those that don't know how a VNT mechanism works...

Image

When I get home, I can grab some stuff from my Bosch book on diesels, too. :)
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mattsteg
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:29 am

That's hypnotic.
...
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:54 am

The VNT mechanism has that effect on people.

:D

FWIW, if you want a VNT gasser, which would give a similar whine, you've got a few options.

The 1989 Shelby Shadow CSX-VNT was the first ever vehicle to use a VNT.

The 1990 Dodge Shadow VNT and Daytona VNT were the successors to that car.

The 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo is the fourth production VNT gasser in history. :P
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Corrado
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:56 am

bhtooefr wrote:
Well, I looked that up... I understand that to be the VNT mechanism is electrically actuated rather than vacuum actuated. The turbo is still spooled using exhaust gases.


OK I was confused by it since, obviously I don't have a $60,000 VW (just $60K INTO a $20K VW :( ) And people kept saying ITS ELECTRIC! (Doin the electric sliiiiiiiiiide)
 
The_Bronx_10451
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:58 am

GETTING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST . . . .

THE VEHICLE IS A 2000 JEEP INLINE 6 CYLINDER ENGINE.

There is NO TURBO charger, people...LOL

Focus...Focus.
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:03 am

You know, there are Jeep forums... ;)

I googled for noisemaker intakes, and found one for $180 with an oiled air filter (bad for your car), and it would only whistle with a throttle body spacer.

BTW, you could always swap in a 1.9 TDI... ;)

Or, a Porsche 3.6 VNT... :lol: :drool:
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Corrado
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:07 am

The_Bronx_10451 wrote:
GETTING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST . . . .

THE VEHICLE IS A 2000 JEEP INLINE 6 CYLINDER ENGINE.

There is NO TURBO charger, people...LOL

Focus...Focus.


Swap in the CRD from the Libertys ;)160hp/300ftlbs and 28mpg all day long!
 
bhtooefr
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:08 am

Actually, not a bad idea, and that also has a VNT turbo, IIRC. :)
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JavaDog
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:40 am

I missed this the first time around. I have a Jeep Cherokee with the same I6 4.0 engine in it.

They already have a bit of intake whistle, step-up to a CAI and you will get more whistle. Of course, the real reason for a CAI is better milage/performance. Get him an Airtube from Rusty's, or build your own using exaust pipe. Just stay away from the K&N garbage filters.

Now, if he does any offroading and you want some water protection - go with this snorkel. Best CAI out there, keeps you from hydrolocking the engine if you do any offroading where water/watercrossing is involved - and it makes a hell of a whistle.

Corrado wrote:
Swap in the CRD from the Libertys ;)160hp/300ftlbs and 28mpg all day long!


Dear god no. The 4.0 I6 is one hell of an engine, taken care of they will last 500,000 miles without batting an eye. While a good diesel would be nice, the weak-ass crap they put in the Libbys isn't it.

EDIT: Oh, by the way - there IS a Supercharger that fits/works on the 4.0l I6. But, not sure if you are looking to spend $3,000 on your son's Jeep. :wink:

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