Yep, the rumors are true. AMD does indeed intend to do away with the ATI name, eliminating the "ATI Radeon" co-branding the company has steadfastly maintained since its acquisition of ATI. The firm briefed us on its plans late last week and explained several factors influencing its decision.
As one might expect, a major motivator is the fact AMD plans to introduce a range of new products incorporating both AMD microprocessor technology and a Radeon graphics tech on the same chip. The first fruits of the CPU-GPU "Fusion" initiative are slated to arrive soon. "Ontario," which will combine two copies of the low-power "Bobcat" CPU core with Radeon graphics, is slated to ship before the end of the year. The more powerful "Llano" APU, which mates quad Phenom II-class CPU cores with presumably a more capable GPU, is scheduled for the first half of 2011. Obviously, the combination of the firm’s CPU and GPU technologies into single-chip products could create some consumer confusion, if folks were to continue to think of AMD and ATI as separate entities—especially if the ensuing marketing messages emphasize the benefits of CPU-GPU integration.
Furthermore, AMD tells us it feels confident in making this change right now because its graphics business is "on a roll," having surpassed rival Nvidia in discrete graphics shipments last quarter, according to analyst estimates, and having secured high-profile design wins with the likes of Apple. Also, the chastening of Intel via its settlement with the FTC gave AMD some extra assurance that the expansion of its brand into graphics wouldn’t hurt its relationships with major PC makers.
Of course, such decisions aren’t made without market research, and AMD shared a snippet of its internal research on this topic with us. We think it’s worth relaying verbatim, in the form of a handsome corporate PowerPoint slide:
The long and short of it is that, according to AMD’s own survey results, consumers savvy enough to know something about discrete graphics cards tend to know the Radeon name, they tend to like AMD, and they don’t mind seeing the AMD name on graphics cards once they realize AMD merged with ATI. The folks at AMD read those results as "permission" to jettison the ATI brand name.
The plan, then, is to replace "ATI Radeon" and "ATI FirePro" with "Radeon" and "FirePro", along with a sprinkling of AMD corporate identity. The badges you see above will be used for systems with discrete Radeon and FirePro graphics cards. The lower row omits the AMD logo, so PC makers shipping Intel-based systems will be able to avoid the oil-and-water combo of Intel and AMD branding, if they wish.
If you just bought an "ATI Radeon" and are proud of that fact, fear not. Existing products, including the Radeon HD 5000 series, will not be renamed. Instead, AMD says the first products to carry the "AMD Radeon" label will be introduced later this year.
The first "Fusion" APUs will participate in the radically simplified "Vision" branding that AMD introduced last fall. That program, when introduced, consolidated a ridiculous constellation of separate badges and stickers for pre-built PCs and laptops into a much smaller number. AMD apparently intends to further consolidate under the Vision banner going forward, although those badges seem to multiply like guppies, so we wouldn’t place any large bets on things getting straightforwardly simpler. For one example, look no further than the "ATI Eyefinity" technology; that will be re-branded as "AMD Eyefinity" and otherwise kept intact.
Interestingly enough, the corporate "Fusion" branding program will be coming to an end, as well. The Fusion name apparently won’t carry over into APUs, believe it or not.
What do you think of this move? Vote in our poll on the discussion page and let us know!
![Crysis Remastered trailer is coming today, may launch this month [UPDATED]](https://cdn.techreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/crysis-1-376x250.jpg)
It’s interesting to note that 17 years ago, back when people were drooling over a 66MHz Pentium, ATI was peddling its Ultra Pro video card, and they were recognized as the supplier of some of the very best video cards in the industry. AMD? Well, they managed to drag their feet by selling 66MHz 486 chips to folks who couldn’t afford a Pentium yet. And wait, Intel was still doing that too, so AMD was basically a clone, nothing more.
And now, well, actually, 13 years after that, AMD gobbled ATI up. And now it’s spitting it out. Not even Nostradamus could’ve predicted that.
What about consoles? I remember the Wii has a ATI logo on it; not sure about the 360.
anyone who still complains about drivers for cards that old should just stop coming here.
OMG!!! Remember how buggy Windows for Workgroups was? Novell Netware 3 was total TRASH!!!
I feel a bit sad really. There were so many good years of cutthroat competition and one-upmanship between ATI and Nvidia, that dynamic is what originally got me interested in following computer hardware news. It feels a bit like the end of an era.
I hope they make some special edition ATI cards, “last of the line” sort of deal like they did back during the acquisition (when they got Dave Orton to sign some special edition cards). It’d be a nice sendoff to the brand.
Goodbye ATI, Canada’s contribution to the PC 😉
All the ones crying about “ATi” disappearing are 4 years late to the party. I am just impressed that it stayed alive for so long. Radeon is FAR more important for the average buyer.
I worked for ATI in Markham back in the late nineties. I fondly remember my Radeon 9700 and X800 PE.
As far as I am concerned the ATI brand died the day they were purchased by AMD.
I’m surprised AMD kept the ATI brand for so long. Long live Radeon.
Another classic AMD example of right idea, wrong execution. At least “ATi” was a brand name that could be pinned on Intel systems. But now they’ve got two different brand arcs (“Radeon” and “FirePro”) and no coherent tie-point for the branding when the AMD logo is removed.
I feel as though AMD’s entire approach to this thing has been blatantly sophomoric.
§[<https://techreport.com/r.x/2010_8_29_AMD_jettisons_ATI_brand_name_makes_Radeon_its_own/research.jpg<]§ I'll address their bullets one by one. *The "several thousand people" they surveyed were no doubt treated to a very selectively worded bit of prose that was tailored to provide AMD with the answers AMD had already decided it wanted to see. *AMD brand preference "triples" when AMD informs these people that AMD bought and has actually owned ATi for the past several years. Seems that among these people, ATi has a much higher brand rating than AMD, hence some of those surveyed had their estimation of AMD go way up /[
lol walt i love reading you’re long ones
Ah, a connoisseur of the language! How pleasant indeed is it, sir, to make your acquaintance. I confess that this post did indeed turn out much more verbose than I had intended, but I do appreciate your reading the entire post for the many priceless gems of wisdom therein! [j/k]
Not too much a connoisseur of the language, given some iffy grammatical choicesg{<.<}g
g{
The great thing about reading posts is that even the most intellectually stunted among us is free to skip the occasional post that may far exceed his cognitive ability, or far exceed his vocabulary, or both.
😉
All you exceed is my time. Don’t flatter yourself.
I technically didn’t read it. I copy pasted it on a text to speech service, downloaded the wav and took it as an audio book for the 2 and a half hour commute to work.
did you bother listening to the end on the drive back, then?
“Chapter One, Verse One. In the beginning, the WaltC created the language and the paragraph. And the paragraph was void, and without form; and darkness reigned upon the face of the font.
“And the WaltC said, ‘Let the paragraph be divided, the one sentence from another.’ And it was so.
“And the WaltC said, ‘Let the sentences be filled with words, overflowing and bountiful in form and structure.’ And it was so.”
…and then my computer was struck by lightning, so I never found out how this one ended, but I’m pretty sure it was destined to go on for a while.
you guys are all dicks. you don’t have to read it, but some of us enjoy it. I’m happy to read what any of you post. As long as it confirms to my predisposed opinions.
Brevity is the soul of wit, as I recall.
lol ldui very good reply. made me laugh a while.
Yea, and I shall reach forth mine hand and smite the Unbelievers in mercy, and bless them with the ability to cogitate…;)
Seriously, it’s just so strange for people to object to answering the provocative statements AMD has made in the form of /[
ATI IS NOTHING MORE THAN A RIVER OF FAIL
We all know the way to go is NVIDIA. Will never buy an ati ever again.
in before “PRIME1 is that you?” 😉
Damn you! 😀
Poor WaltC. He is on point, yet out of 15 or so replies (and sub-replies) this little “gem” (#89) is the only one that is actually any sort of a response to the content of his post.
These sorts of shenanigans makes me glad my livelihood is not dependent on a marketing job. I mean, how many man-hours went into the ridiculous survey and other mindless machinations that led to this inane (if colourful) powerpoint presentation (from which the above slides are sourced) and the utterly inconsequential decision to drop the ATi brand.
Instead, how about hiring some more engineers to bolster your efforts against Intel? No. That would be much too logical.
Whatever, now get back to work!
Ok, I know AMD had the right to do this, after all, they paid $5B for ATI and plunged their collective asses in debt. I’m sure they gave this matter some thought over breakfast, but AMD really sucks when it comes to branding. I mean, Duron? Sempron? Their logos aren’t much better either. They shouldn’t tamper with the Radeon logo anymore, the way they’re doing now, because the pointed ‘O’ really isn’t doing them any good. When it comes to branding and modifying the ATI or Radeon name, AMD should just admit that they suck at it and leave it alone. Maybe they should ask Intel for help.
I just hope AMD will keep the Radeon brand for many years before coming up with a new name to ruin the brand and make it sound stupid.
$2B more than a companies value is literally pennies for a company the size of AMD. That can be eaten up over a few quarters if they think they can tie the two companies together better than apart. And so far ATI has been an excellent buy for AMDg{<.<}g
The one obvious thing that is not mentioned is that they appear to be keeping the ATI colour scheme which is probably the main consideration since AMD (and NVIDIA) both use green in their corporate logos.
Whoops, I guess a few people mentioned it, I searched for “color” but forgot to search for “red”. It really just boils down to “Radeon” versus “ATI Radeon” so the main title that people recognize and the color are still there.
I’d miss it, but then I realized that people less in the know were already starting to head in that direction, so this decision pretty much moves it along.
so its true what they say. merging really means you buy someone out and own their @ss.
Does anyone actually care about this?
And Ruby? Who gives a rat’s ass about a friggin’ cartoon mascot?
All ATI owners. Seemingly not Fermi-fanbois.
4850 owner here and I don’t give a rat’s ass about it.
I care as I feel it’s the end of an Era. For me the ATI mark has been part of the PC as long as I can remember (from moving over from the Amiga). It’s an old illustrious name and think it’s a bad idea to get rid of it.
I feel the same way. If it was up to me I would have kept it for the discrete products…I guess I’ll just never understand marketing; some companies take pains to keep acquired brands, while others don’t. And then of course there are those companies who do both 🙂
The only thing I liked about ATI (in a superficial way) was their awesome girls. As long as they keep that, I don’t care what they call em. I just wish Nvidia would counter with its own sexy digital art.
Looks like I’m gonna smash all of my 4800s and 5870 with a hammer since AMD doesn’t like the ATI name.
The real crime here is the dude in the corporate PowerPoint slide. I mean, really, who plays games like that? :p
Hipsters dont even need mice to play what appears to be a FPS game.
haha I didn’t even notice. ridiculous.
It will always be ATI to me!!!
I wonder if they will change Ruby’s name too? lol
will kinda miss ati name …….. have been using 3 cards since 2005 but hey it does not matter as i see the radeon\geforce name, the model and the performance anyway.
“/[
I didn’t like this part either. I think AMD wanted their name on all logos but the powers that be at Intel probably pitched enough of a fit to prevent it. I’m just speculating but given the settlement between the two companies, AMD might have given in.
AMD’s name on an Intel laptop. It probably sent cry baby Intel exec’s who are two wimpy to compete technically into a frothing rampage.
There is a perception by some that you’ll have problems unless all your parts are from the same company. For example, I’ve overheard random people at stores thinking they needed an Nvidia GPU because they have an Nvidia motherboard (chipset).
Some companies might be afraid people would balk at mixing Intel and AMD stuff too. Or, they might have bought into the Intel marketing machine and would be confused seeing AMD on the logo (like, did I really buy Intel? Why does it say AMD? Don’t I need Intel Inside(TM)?
Basically it’s just providing a way to avoid putting something on the box that would scare ignorant consumers.
I don’t think so. If a customer is knowledgeable enough to know something about AMD and Intel, then they probably know enough to not think there is a conflict.
Besides, even Anand is a little doubtful about this part.
“AMD states the AMD-less logos are purely at the request of OEMs who sell systems with Intel CPUs and AMD GPUs. I suspect Intel’s logo program may have some stipulations on being used adjacent to a sticker with an AMD logo on it, although AMD told me it was purely at the request of the OEMs trying to avoid confusion.”
§[<http://www.anandtech.com/show/3878/farewell-to-ati-amd-to-retire-the-ati-brand-later-this-year<]§
l[
Because it reduces sales. Don’t think for a moment that intel would allow the sale of anything with “AMD” written on it. AMD are right to give up their pride for profits.
But it’s not Intel’s call (especially with the recent litigation), it’s the OEMs’. While it may or may not increase profits in the short run if the user has a good experience it would undoubtedly help AMDs image (and thus future profits) in the long run.
The OEMs aren’t going to kick up any trouble they don’t need, especially not over the sticker logos.
Anyone who remembers how buggy ATI Rage, Rage Pro and Rage Pro 128 cards were won’t miss the ATI brand much.
My dad is still running an ATI Rage Pro!
As I whined on here many a time, i was running one up until about 2-3 months ago.
I was looking at the logo, some simple gradients and lighting tweaks in Indesign or what not. I wonder how much someone got paid to make them.
Might have been in-house. These are probably just mock-ups. Seems too simple for a graphics house.
hanging onto the red and the Radeon is savvy, ATI does not have a good rep with their enterprise cards (weak driver support poor market penetration)….perhaps AMD could fix that, I think they could have stretched the phasing out of the ATI name some but really it doesn’t matter.
by hanging onto the red and the Radeon name it’ll be a pretty uneventful switch and might actually help the AMD brand.
Only fanboys will care. For AMD, as far as consistent branding goes, this is clearly sensible.
Flip-mode is on point
I keep reading about APU, what is this
§[<http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amd+apu<]§
Wow that’s awesome!! LOL
Even tho there’s no link…where the hell did that come from hehe
Still does not say what the acronym means. That is what I was implying.
Audio Processing Unit?
Advanced Processing Unit?
AMD Processing Unit?
Agnostic People Unite?
Asparagus Peas Unagi?
Amsterdam Pot Useful?
Very first line from the very FIRST google result:
“accelerated processing unit”
He actually made you a favor sending you that link.
He minds the Kwik-E-Mart. Thank you, come again.
The good news amidst all this is that AMD will be dumping the Fusion brand. Heck, they themselves can’t figure out what to do with the brand, anyway. Is it a CPU+GPU? No, it’s a fusing of different technologies from AMD. No wait, is it a piece of software? Go figure.
And the standard joe user will still ask… “so this Radeon thingy goes inside the hard drive and will make deer hunter look better?”
Sounds like you’ve been talking to my dad.
yeah, i used to work in a local computer store. Most people will not care about branding. The person will come in and say they want their son/grandchild/nephew to play video games, and the clerk will sell them their favorite video card.
If you are building a computer online from dell or hp, you will be stuck with the brand that they choose for a specific model. Many will click the bullet that is $50-$100 more than the base hoping they get the best of both worlds, but won’t understand what exactly they are getting.
I liked the ATI branding, this name change makes it feel like the soul of the company was lost.
I still abhor nvidia, since they’re nothing but blood sucking leeches, but removing ATI’s name makes me feel more brand impartial.
I also agree with bensam, that changing the name could cause cpu/graphics confusion in stupid people.
The fusion stuff would be ok, but separate cards should be left alone.
Soulless entity vs bloodsucking leeches? It’s getting harder to be a fanboy these days.
Could be worse though. Could be politics.
Soulless entity vs bloodsucking leeches is the very epitome of political debate.
Marketing is basically a more “honest” form of politics as in the case of marketing, the proof is in the pudding (product). In politics, the pudding is often way more ambiguous, esoteric and ephemeral.
A marketing campaign (from a large corporation) will loosely dance around the truth or even outright lie in order to persuade the masses to ally themselves with a particular brand so they will part with their hard earned money to make a few at the top richer/more powerful.
A political campaign will loosely dance around the truth or even outright lie in order to persuade the masses to ally themselves with their platforms to make a few at the top richer/more powerful, ultimately by promoting themselves to a position where they have access to their hard earned money (ie, taxes) to do with as they see fit.
At least in the case of the marketing campaign the marketed product is usually tangible and transparent and can be scrutinized and measured by interested parties (ie, TR, the consumer) and thereby be weighed on its own merits. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for most political agendas.
/cynicism
Who honestly cares?
The same development house is at Ontario. The graphical division there still puts out quality GPU designs. This is what really matters.
This move is mostly a precursor to AMD’s Fusion program. They want to portray themselves to average joe as an entire platform that rivals Intel’s offerings.
I still write the name ‘ATi’, and I visit ‘atitech.com’. How do /you/ think I feel about this?
I’ve always referred to the card by it’s brand (Radeon or Geforce) and model number, not by it’s designer (ATI or NVidia). So, this is all a non-issue.
Besides, it’s been years since ATI actually made it’s own cards.
Sanders would never had done this. He might replace Ruby with himself beating down ninjas, but he ain’t dumb enough to wtfpwn brand recognition because of simple ego.
Yeah! Sanders IS the man! Let’s hope the Dark Mayor will run AMD far better than that Ruiz (or Ruin?) did. It was because of him that AMD had to spin off their fab, and now Jerry can’t brag that only real men have fabs anymore
Perhaps he’ll beat you down as well since ATI is a /[
I will not comply. persistence is futile.
ATi is kicking butt in the market place right now and so AMD gets some of the glory,which won’t hurt them a bit.
ATi fans will use either Radeon or AMD video card in discussions and that can only help polish AMD’s image.
Also a multi product CPU and GPU maker against a one trick pony like NVidia gives them the appearance of more depth and more clout.
I guess it says something about AMD’s attitude that instead of embargoing this jarring news until 5PM on a Friday, they are instead doing it on 12:00AM Monday morning. They obviously see it as a positive thing, and are tackling it head first.While I understand the necessity in their mind to make the change, I can’t say I personally agree with it.
I have, since 2002 and going forward, strongly associated ATi with being an engineering/innovation-driven company (and then subsidiary) from top to bottom (Dave Orton), instead of marketing-driven like most tech companies (RE: Apple/Jobs, nVIDIA/Jensen.). ATi is a strong brand in their market, to geeks at least. AMD is a VALUE brand in theirs. Sure, AMD’s brand is more recognizable to the layman and many (myself included) root for them because they’re the underdog, so it’s obvious AMD (graphics) vs. nVIDIA is a no-brainer. CPU Underdog with competative GPU products Vs. GPU Maker that could be associated with the negative aspects of Intel. Still, you ask a real NERD, they’re going to tell you ATi is the stronger brand.
In my PERSONAL opinion, this decision is wrong. To the mass populace, I could understand why it makes sense.
R.I.P RUBY.
Who bought out who again? I think AMD is clearly the stronger brand….
Correct.
Anyway,if loyal fans like myself and Stu can live with it then it’s reasonable to assume so will J.Public.
I couldn’t really care less. It’s still the Radeon name, so we’re all still aware that it’s about graphics, and it’s under AMD’s control whether or not they consolidate the name
My only question is this…Will we now call AMD the red team? We can’t have two green teams in the graphics market now can we?
AMD is the “in the red” team :p. /jk
You could mix the two and get yellow.
Red+Green=Brown? Unless we’re talking light spectrum.
Meadows *[
Good! I’ve always repected/trusted AMD more than ATI. I had to deal with a number of faulty cards during the ATI x800/x1800 days, but my “DAAMIT” cards have been solid.
9800 Pro, man.
I honestly think this is a bad move. It adds more confusion to the already confusing naming schemes they use for cards. I’m not saying this because I don’t understand them or that I’m reminiscing and don’t want ATI to go.
Rather I believe that for consumers all they understand is basic brand names and numbers. If I told this to my dad for example he’d go ‘AMD graphics?’ and look at me with a confused look and simply state it has a AMD inside and a ATI graphics chip.
Muddling the waters will further confuse most potential buyers, I’m certain to the point that they’ll think the graphics cards are actually processors. People are this stupid and it happens all the time.
I can understand AMD wanting to brand everything with their logo, this is like pissing on their territory and claiming it as their own. Then they can claim how great their epeen is to everyone else.
If they’re going this far they really should just redo the entire numbering and labeling system under a concise scheme instead of trying to make the next brand ‘bigger’ and ‘better’. IE Radeon 1,2,3,4,5. You can use .1, .2, .3 or such for submodels and even add A, B, C grades to them to represent subvariants of those. People can understand grades like milk or meat, as well as sub categories of a bigger number. Asking mom or dad to describe the difference between a GTX and GTS will just greet you with strange looks like ‘Is there a difference?’.
You could even go as far as adding catagories to those grades. Like A grade for high end games, B grade for casual gaming, C grade for internet and email use. People can understand what grade to follow if it is catagorized in a way that follows their day to day computer usage patterns.
This in itself will increase sales because people don’t like NOT knowing what they’re buying. If they can get a product that they know nothing about that has some sort of guarantee as to what experience they’ll get out of it, they’ll be more likely to buy it then choosing the mystery bag.
We’re already in the middle of the Geforce 5X FX series, which will confuse most potential customers especially people who STILL HAVE those video cards in their system. They’ll just simply state they have a 5940 and assume it’s the same thing, even though it’s generations old!
Unfortunately marketing is almost as much trying to sell yourself as it is your product. If you can claim ‘I added GTS and GTX to X product and sales went up 6%!’ that is a huge deal. Unfortunately AMD isn’t smart enough to understand that a lot of marketing is the marketer marking their own territory as well as the products.
Really if either AMD or Nvidia were halfway intelligent they’d make a extremely simple and easily understandable scheme that any consumer would be able to understand. Like the example I gave.
Also the thing about statistics is, if you interpret them enough you can eventually get them to say whatever you want them to.
I think this isnt really an option for them.. if they dont do this, it’d get messy once APUs started launching.. btw, they’re clearly hinting that radeon 6000-series is coming later this year right?..
p/s: I want the old comment view style back… now I have to click back after I view one comment reply to get to the overview again.. the old way is better and easier and smarter…
Ascending flat thread view for life.
Genius. An absolute masterstroke. Will revolutionise the industry.
I couldn’t agree more. This is the biggest thing to happen since Gordon Moore first split the atom in his basement lab.
Is that guy on the “research” slide trying to demonstrate the most uncomfortable way possible to use a computer?
I was thinking that too. I hope no-one got paid for that bit of slide art!
Not to mention that is no computer, nor does the monitor get any power.
The lower row omits the AMD logo, so PC makers shipping Intel-based systems will be able to avoid the oil-and-water combo of Intel and AMD branding, if they wish. <- isnt that basicly make it say Radeon and not AMD Radeon? on systems with AMD Graphics and Intel Processors?
i still like the ATI Radeon name, that way you know its from ATI part of amd, and is a radeon card
Losing ATI makes me a bit sad, but ‘eh, whatever. It happens.
Now, if they got rid of Radeon, I’d be sharpening my pitchfork and warming up the tar.
l[
Finally. I may eventually forget all the crappy drivers my Rage 128, Rage 128 Maxx, Radeon (the original one), and 2600 had.
Its interesting they’re keeping the red color. Guess they didn’t want it to be the Green Team vs the green team. Heh.
Finally. Now I won’t have to hear any more of that “ATI is not AMD” garbage.
ATI is not AMD garbage. Times infinity.
ATI is AMD times eyefinity.
you are imageon things
I wonder how much money they spent to have someone tell them the obvious result that the “Radeon” brand is currently stronger than the “ATI” or “AMD” brands.
Why would they drop “Radeon”? That would be meaningless. Of course it hasn’t even entered consideration.
But businesses spend untold sums of money to actually verify that in the market. If ATI is what kept brand recognition then you’d see AMD’s ATI Graphics. I know the higher-ups with my employer commissioned studies to figure out which product names were associated with what companies and we got a whole new branding structure about a year ago. Logo looks sweet and product logos are now the corporate logo with different words. It’s very obvious who it belongs to. This stuff seems meaningless but companies put a ton of emphasis on it.
That sounds about right except the the ending, in the end the executive feels that it’s different and does what he wants anyways. Wasting time, money, and energy.
Oddly enough the biggest resistance came from clients who thought we were just messing with colors and icons to throw them off when we were trying to conform bits of the web app to meet corporate UI specs. I think the changes were universally positive – and now that it’s been done for over a year I think people in general agree.
RIP ATI. The Rage-era ATI logo was great, but I’m not digging this new font.
What I don’t understand is why there needs to be a pointy corner on the letter “O”.
Because they paid some marketing firm over $9,000 to make up some BS reason for a logo that’s different than what any rational person would do off the top of their head.
I can’t wait to get my new Radedn graphics card.
I see what you did there.
You would think that with the apparent ‘need’ to put a pointy corner on the O, they could have at least placed the pointy corner that they stuck on the A on the left side (not the right) for consistency with the other letters.
Seems like an odd font decision.
No, that takes at least two designers to figure out.
Option 4: Yawn
No, that’s option 3.
Edit: Oooh, I see what you did there.
*reserved for Krogoth*
When should we wake youg{
haha, very good
When you start bitching about drivers.
When the monthlies come out, and then the (b) revision to fix them, perhaps I’ll humor youg{<.<}g
I like it!
this