Gabe Newell calls Win8 a ‘catastrophe,’ wants Linux to thrive

Ah, so that’s why Valve is busy porting Steam and Left 4 Dead 2 to Ubuntu Linux. Apparently, Valve head honcho Gabe Newell is none too thrilled about Windows 8, and he sees Linux as a potential refuge for PC gamers and enthusiasts.

At least, that’s how I understand Newell’s response to an interview question asked by VentureBeat yesterday. The question was simple: "What are some of the projects you’re working on?" The Valve founder started his response by saying Valve owes its success to the inherent openness of the PC as a platform, but going forward, the company will need to take an active part in "[making] sure there are open platforms." He went on to say:

One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people — in their thinking about platforms — don’t realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we’re going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who’s engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy.
I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we’re going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They’ll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that’s true, it’s going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality. But when you start thinking about a platform, you have to address it. You have to address mobile. You have to look at what’s going to happen post-tablet. If you look at the mouse and keyboard, it was stable for about 25 years. I think touch will be stable for about 10 years. I think post-touch, and we’ll be stable for a really long time — for another 25 years. I think touch will be this intermediate….

Well, how about that.

Newell’s prediction might seem a little out there, but I can see where he’s coming from. Microsoft has clearly chosen to prioritize tablets and touch-enabled systems with Windows 8, and I’ve ranted at length about how awkward that’s going to make things for us enthusiasts. At times, I’ve also found myself wondering if Linux might offer an escape route from the looming swarm of Metro tiles and full-screen apps. I guess I haven’t been the only one.

To be honest, though, I’ve never been too impressed with Linux’s driver support—or open-source alternatives to Windows productivity apps like Excel and Photoshop. I’d probably be happier clinging on to Windows 7 than switching to Linux. That said, if more enthusiasts jump ship with the backing of firms like Valve, who’s to say what Linux will look like in a few short years? The widespread availability of virtualization software could ease the transition, too.

One thing’s for sure: the next few years are going to be interesting times for PC enthusiasts.

Comments closed
    • l33t-g4m3r
    • 7 years ago

    Here’s another perspective, Microsoft has already been slowly locking down their OS for games using completely worthliess software/DRM such as GFWL/Games Explorer. Neither of these things do any good for the community in general, and we were better off before Microsoft forced it on us. GFWL had potential, but Microsoft destroyed any good use it may have had by turning it into a DRM/DLC fest that corrupts your saves and makes installations a nightmare. Arkham City is a perfect example of what GFWL has been turned into.

    Microsoft is no longer the PC gamer’s ally, but instead a backstabbing thief that nickels and dimes us for every penny we got while making sure we can’t get content anywhere else, like free mods or even steam. Metro/App store is merely the logical conclusion of the continual lockdown and monetization of the community.

    Some of us have known there was a problem since day one, but now it’s so bad Valve and Blizzard are forced to start porting to linux. The time for denial is over. Microsoft is purposely locking down their OS, albeit slowly, and there is no good ending for us if we don’t push back. Even if you love DRM, this is bad because Microsoft cannot and has never made anything work right. History has shown Microsoft created DRM like GFWL and PlaysForSure have been horrible failures, and the App store will likely be too.

      • Mr Bill
      • 7 years ago

      ++ well said. I’ve watched this happen since the early DOS days.

    • GatoRat
    • 7 years ago

    So, let’s get this straight. Instead of releasing Half Life 2 Episode 3 (or Half Life 3), Valve is porting a three-year-old game to Linux.

    I’m not a fan of Metro, but Windows 8 is going to sell and will quickly constitute a far bigger market than Linux. So is Gabe Newell really proposing that Valve walk away from large market in favor of a smaller one where making money from shrink wrapped software has proven to be difficult, to put it mildly?

    (I’ll go out on a limb and predict that Microsoft will eventually release Windows 9 with Aero–too much money is as stake.)

    • Laykun
    • 7 years ago

    Here’s hoping that they throw lots of money and resources at wine and make it a viable technology.

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      If game developer use Source, or ID Tech, or Unity 3D, etc.. they will get on linux without wine.

      So I would prefer that they invest in cross platform tool instead.

        • Laykun
        • 7 years ago

        Oh I meant in terms of pre-existing games. The nice thing about steam is that you can buy and download older games that you always wanted to play. With better wine support this would make their back catalogue of games much more exciting for linux users and would help transition existing steam users who already have a large library of games over to linux.

    • cynan
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]I'd probably be happier [b<]clinging on[/b<] to Windows 7 than switching to Linux[/quote<] I think most people would. At least for the next few years. All the same, nice geekian slip there Cyril 🙂

      • clone
      • 7 years ago

      I agree with that, had already decided too having used Linux a cppl years ago and wasn’t excited.

    • TAViX
    • 7 years ago

    Everybody in the idustry knows that the latest OpenGL is so much better than DirectX, so I say is about god damn time for Linux to get a kick start.

    • Chrispy_
    • 7 years ago

    [quote=”Gabe Newell”<]I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space.[/quote<] If there's one thing Gabe Newell isn't, it's "always wrong". Steam isn't the resounding success it is because he got lucky, Gabe is an astute businessman who knows how to seize an opportunity when one comes up, and milk it for financial gain. I am extrapolating this information to imply that he also knows how to spot a turd when one comes up, and use that information to invest wisely elsewhere.

    • hasseb64
    • 7 years ago

    That man and his company can just STFU after I heard about their 30% “tax” on steam.

      • FuturePastNow
      • 7 years ago

      And how much do you think Microsoft’s cut of its app store is going to be?

      I’ll give you a hint: it’s 30%

        • Corrado
        • 7 years ago

        Same with Apple, Amazon, and Google.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        [url<]http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/371626/microsoft-trumps-apple-with-smaller-app-store-cut[/url<]

          • Corrado
          • 7 years ago

          Thats not going to help most people. Its 30% until they hit some arbitrary number, then its 20%.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            i dont’ disagree, i just wanted to clarify.

      • jdaven
      • 7 years ago

      Doesn’t Amazon and Apple also charge between 20 and 30% on its online app and bookstore? I think the Android Marketplace has something similar.

    • gmskking
    • 7 years ago

    Yessssss! Fuck Windows. I hope it dies for good.

    • DeadOfKnight
    • 7 years ago

    It’s about time Linux got support as a consumer product from a major corporation. Honestly, I would pay (not much perhaps, $20?) for a good distro if these things were to come to pass. Until then I’ll stick with Windows 7.

    • Arclight
    • 7 years ago

    Frankly i wouldn’t mind dual booting a Valve supported Linux Distro…..though i won’t move to Windows 8 i will continue with Windowse 7 for many years to come. Maybe Gabe assumed too much from W8 alone.

    If i were a gambler i’d bet the next Windows installment (that comes after W8) will feature several versions desgined to cater diverse segments of the market as it should have been with W8. Microsoft effed up W8 because they tried to cover all the market segments with an OS that was more tuned for portable devices which use touch as main input.

    • Silus
    • 7 years ago

    LOL, Gabe Newell as usual should just shut the hell up…
    Yes, WIndows 8 as it is, is way too focused on mobile devices and ignoring desktops, but that is something that Microsoft will surely fix eventually, unless the majority of the market just accepts it as is and the vocal minority is well, the minority so it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things.
    But as far as gaming goes Windows will continue to be as strong as ever. Developers that have chosen the Dirext X API for years and have had support from Microsoft with all their easy to use tools, while neglecting OpenGL, won’t just all of a sudden, port all their games portfolio to OpenGL and start using it for their next games. That’s ridiculous, because even if this becomes true and WIndows as a gaming platform starts to “die” (highly doubtful, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume it will), for the time being and for the years to come, it will be the largest and developers will continue to use it for longer than Windows 8 will be Microsoft’s latest OS…Only developers that have been doing that for years, will continue to support it, like id Software!

    Gabe Newell is just like the typical PR guy that when his company decides to make a move to something different, then it’s the best thing ever and everything else is bad or a “catastrophe”, just so he can promote his new initiative.

      • Celess
      • 7 years ago

      I agree.

      He needed to explain better specifically why “catastrophe”, but just left that on the floor. Hes a smart guy and obviously spent a long time thinking about this, as he should. So it was fairly certainly a purposeful drop, and amounts to fud effectively. He did explain what he believed to be the effects but without justification.

      Games take a ton of infrastructure in tools and code, art, content, people, distribution, etc… and most games on Windows dont use OpenGL, even WoW now on Windows uses DirectX. I agree that this doesnt change overnight. Nor does the game industry as a whole give up easily. Companies come and go like the seasons, developers and conterparts reform jsut as often and make new products.

      Theres more money to be made in games than ever has been, and certainly at least an order of magnatude or two more since he started back in the day doing this for a living. So the potential for attempts at products will grow just because of these forces, and its this mechanic that gives steam teeth beyond a delivery mechanism for just Valves core games.

      If I had to guess this is about the microsoft app store. It is centered around metro apps at least in principal, and those kind of small device like apps. And pushes these kind of facebook-iphone like games down onto a platform, that is for all intents and purposes, the ultimate bread and butter for Valve, and seemingly thier end ambition. This causes a problem for him. This is of course my conjecture, but its what I’d worry about if I were him. The phone-facebook app-game thing isnt exactly new, hes had some time to prepare, to diversify his apples or rework his basket….

      Fun fact: Gabe Newell worked on Microsoft Bob when he was employed by Microsoft. Hes no stranger to this kind of thing. 🙂

        • sschaem
        • 7 years ago

        Come on , you need a reason to explain he said Metro/windows8 is a “catastrophe” ?

        You cant install a windows RT/ Metro based game without using Microsoft app store.
        Its reason enough for people like EA, Vavle etc.. to panic as its walling of software distribution.

        EA spend 80 million developing a AAA metro game, and Microsoft own 30% of all revenue, just because it must be downloaded on their store.

        Metro is not a “catastrophe”, its a freaking outrage.

          • sweatshopking
          • 7 years ago

          don’t deploy on metro?

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      “Windows will continue to be as strong as ever” Want to make a bet on that ?

      Unity 3D, ID tech, Source, (and pretty much all game running on ps3, iphone, ipad, android, wii..) are not using DirectX.
      Most are actually OpenGL, OpenGL EA or Web GL base.

      It wont take much for Windows and directx loose its appeal. I wouldn’t surprise if in 5 years you load up steam on OSX, windows and Linux and each platform have pretty much the same about of new title available.

      Its coming… Valve just want to be ready.

        • Pettytheft
        • 7 years ago

        All those engines are dated with the exception of iD tech. Nobody is really exited about what iD put out this time. Take a look at what Epic is planning with for the PC with DirectX. I can’t believe people are counting Microsoft out already.

        See
        Netscape
        OpenGL
        Real Media
        Sony
        Nintendo
        etc..
        Everyone laughed at Microsofts first entry into these markets. Then after a few years they were not laughing any more.

        They’ll keep tinkering and throwing cash at it until they get it right. They are not overly concerned with a few power users and the massive Linux community stealing market share from the desktop.

        • Silus
        • 7 years ago

        Sure, you have a bet!
        I say nothing will change in the next 3-5 years, even if WIndows 8 is a failure. At which point it won’t be Microsoft’s latest OS anymore.
        Games will continue to target the windows/xbox 360/720 more than they will target anything that only supports OpenGL in the desktop/laptops/consoles.
        Also, Linux will not become a major gaming platform.

      • designerfx
      • 7 years ago

      Why would anyone in the right mind wish to wait for Microsoft to fix this when there is an entire market that exists with plenty of alternatives, which are looking better every day?

        • Silus
        • 7 years ago

        First of all, it’s clear you’re not a developer and don’t understand all that is required to create a game. Tools (easy tools at that) are everything. It’s not about being the best programmer anymore, although obviously that helps. But since not everyone is a programming genius like John Carmack, capable and easy tools to work with are a very important part of the development process (and not only in games or the entertainment business…they’re also very useful in other areas too, like telecommunications just to name one other example). Tools that Microsoft “offers” with DirectX, but OpenGL lacks.
        Second, and picking up on the previously made point, with the tools in hand and years put into developing with those tools, you can’t just dismiss it and move to something entirely different. This business is very lucrative and they can’t just postpone games to get used to a completely different working environment and that’s why Windows will continue to be the main platform to code for and also why developers today choose the Xbox 360 as the main SKU for all their multi-platform games.
        Third, there are no alternatives today that have all these advantages and that’s why Windows will continue to be the main platform to code for, to reiterate my point from a few lines up…

    • Disco
    • 7 years ago

    Not another project to keep them from working on HL3!! Aaargh!! 🙁

      • DeadOfKnight
      • 7 years ago

      I don’t know whether to thumb you up or down.

      • Silus
      • 7 years ago

      How about you face the facts ? Valve doesn’t care about its fans. Even though there isn’t a single fan of the Half Life saga that doesn’t want to see HL3/HL2 Episode 3 or whatever they want to call it, Valve just ignores them. In fact they said so in a rather recent interview that they only work on the things they want and they didn’t really want to work on HL at that point.

      Any other company doing that would be greeted with a big uproar. Valve gets away with it…fanatics are like that!

    • Krogoth
    • 7 years ago

    The PC market is changing.

    The era of the traditional desktop PC is coming to an end. No,. it is not the “post-PC” era. Traditional desktop PCs will meet the same fate as their big-iron predecessors. A viable niche that caters to certain markets, but it is no longer driving the mainstream market.

    The mainstream doesn’t care about getting a new desktop system. They are using whatever desktop that got on hand , until it dies and the desktop can be anywhere between 2-10 years old. They are more interested in getting portable platforms. The rapid growth of portable systems speaks for itself.

    The PC gaming industry itself is being marginalized by gaming consoles and games on portable platforms. Big publishers already see the writing on the wall and they want to move onto F2P models and subscription-based services.

    • ronch
    • 7 years ago

    Well, I used to love Linux because it’s free, but I scrapped it now. The reason is that it either works or it doesn’t. Yeah, I know I’m gonna get a few angry responses out there, but THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE with popular distros. I am not the kind of guy who wants to fiddle a lot with the console, more so the code. And, I’m sure 99% of folks out there would say the same thing. Even if you’re a techy guy (I consider myself quite a bit techy otherwise I wouldn’t even be here at TR).

    Linux is a credible effort, for sure, and if you’re the kind of guy who wants to get your hands dirty editing code just so the OS will run properly, well, knock yourself out. But until someone really hires a team to iron out and polish a distro (Android is an example), I don’t see any one of the popular desktop distros really reaching anywhere near 2-digit market share.

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      My sentiments exactly.

      Linux works well for the casual user who only browses the web and plays some media. Once you start pushing Linux too far you hit a quirk that requires you to edit code or give up. Even if you are capable of editing code to make things work, that’s effort you’ve wasted on that task instead of doing the task you wanted to in the first place.

        • kc77
        • 7 years ago

        I’ve installed it for others and usually the “pushing Linux too far” usually means trying to get Linux to be Windows, which would be just as problematic for Windows. Have you ever installed L/(W)AMP on Windows?

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      Just recompile your kernel. My hardcore linux bud talks about recompiling his kernel all the time so we started giving him shit for it. You can fix almost anything, but that means you need to have the technical know-how and the the time commitment to do so. Some people just want their OS to work.

        • ronch
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]Just recompile your kernel.[/quote<] Haha, like you can say that to the average Joe, dude. Like, my mom doesn't even know what a computer virus is.

          • Silus
          • 7 years ago

          I think that was his point…the “recompile your kernel” is just something his buddy told him.

            • ronch
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]the "recompile your kernel" is just something his buddy told him.[/quote<] I don't think so. He wants me to recompile my kernel, then goes on to say that he has a bud who talks about recompiling his kernel. Here: [quote<]Just recompile your kernel. My hardcore linux bud talks about recompiling his kernel all the time[/quote<]

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            Then he says “so we all started giving him shit ” making it clear it was a joke directed at hard core Linux geeks.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            lol, I didn’t think this comment could spawn so much confusion. It was a joke. My Nix friend is hardcore believer in Nix and he says something like ‘just recompile your kernel’ like everyone knows how to do it. But just like you said, joe schmoe is going to have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about…

            More so to the point, they honestly don’t CARE or dont want to learn. I don’t either. He talked about spending a few hours doing it too. You know how many times I’ve recompiled my kernel in windows?

            I’m sure you can argue that allows you to custom tailor everything, but honestly people just want things to work… I do. I don’t find it fulfilling to have to make my OS work just so I can do things on it I originally wanted to.

            He also talks about recompiling his drivers and how when he played WoW in wine quite a few textures didn’t render and he had hot-pink flowers.

          • NeelyCam
          • 7 years ago

          Sarcdet fail

      • Oldtech
      • 7 years ago

      I agree! Installing software or drivers is an excersize in futility! There are too many distros, too many kernals, too many desktops, too many install routines, just too many of everything. It proves the old saying ‘Too many chefs spoil the soup’.
      The Linux comunity needs to get together and settle on one way to install drivers and one way to install software…without the command prompt.
      The command prompt…I thought DOS was dead. It’s like going back to the 1980’s. This is the Twenty First century.
      You should not have to ‘re-compile’ anything just to get drivers and software to work.

      This morning I installed Linux Mint 12 on new hardware. It wouldn’t recognize the the video built into the CPU. Really??? These CPUs with the video built in have been out for two years now. And after installing a three year old video card to get the system to work, something as simple as the screen saver doesn’t work. Maybe I have to re-compile something. Bah.

      Linux is stuck as being a nitch product until some standards are set and it’s made ‘User Friendly’

      Oldtech

        • nafhan
        • 7 years ago

        Drivers, sure… that’s going to depend on your hardware. But, what software were you trying to install? If you use the software repository, there’s usually a GUI that’s pretty similar to the “app stores” on Android or iOS. I’d really say that installing software on Linux is generally easier than Windows.

        Linux on the desktop is a “nitch” product because people need compatibility with Windows or OSX apps – not because you have trouble with the install process. The general population of computer users would find the process of doing a Windows install just as baffling as you found your recent Mint install. Most people expect their computers to come of the box per-configured and ready to use, and that could easily be done with Linux based machines.

          • Corrado
          • 7 years ago

          We use Trend ServerProtect for Linux on our servers here. It uses a specific kernel hook file to enable realtime scanning. If we run ANY updates that change the kernel even .x.x.x.x.x.x.1, that hook file stops working, and realtime scanning stops working. Meaning, we can’t run normal updates without a replacing other files, and theres not a guarantee that the version being updated to has an updated file for it.

          Now, I realize that its not that tough to keep it updated for people that are Linux admins, but for the average person, in this situation, you run ‘normal’ OS updates, and all of a sudden some other piece of your software stops running. How many ‘average people’ are going to know how to even BEGIN to troubleshoot that? People know c:\program files. People don’t know /usr/bin/trendSPLX3.0/bin or /opt/trendSPLX. It might take retraining, but these people don’t WANT retraining. They want their stuff to just work the way it always has.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            It may be tautologically obvious, but people who administer Linux servers [i<]are[/i<] linux admins. All of them.

            • Corrado
            • 7 years ago

            Right, but the people that run Linux home PCs … are not. Being able to change a flat tire doesn’t make you a mechanic. I’m not saying this EXACT SPECIFIC scenario, but what happens when they install updates and all of a sudden their audio driver stops working because something got changed in the kernel or ALSA or OSS updates and breaks something?

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            Those kinds of things are becoming so rare today, though. It’s probably been four Ubuntu releases since I had something like that happen.

            • just brew it!
            • 7 years ago

            It helps a lot if you’re not using bleeding edge hardware (which allows you to get all your devices working using just the stock drivers that come bundled with the distro).

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        The word is “Niche”.

          • NeelyCam
          • 7 years ago

          You and Meadows should get married and have lots of grammarnazi babies

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            that’s a good idea!

            • Meadows
            • 7 years ago

            No, it is not.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            Yes it is. we can snuggle!

        • way2strong
        • 7 years ago

        Probably should have used Mint 13, it’s been out for a couple months now. Linux has supported Intel HD 4000 graphics since Ivy Bridge has been available.
        [url<]http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel_hd4000_ivybridge&num=2[/url<]

      • nafhan
      • 7 years ago

      Not angry, but just to cancel out anecdotal evidence with a conflicting anecdote… My experience has been pretty much the opposite. The install tends to be quick and mostly automated – including drivers. I usually end up going back to Win 7 for gaming support, though. Steam on Ubuntu may change that…

      Driver issues are due to one of two things: OEM’s lack of commitment to building a good Linux driver OR the community’s inability to build a good driver because of lack of resources or lack of support from the OEM (i.e. driver code is closed source). If OEM’s are committed to hiding their source code and not supporting the OS, not a whole lot can be done about that.

      The last time I had to “get my hands dirty editing code” (specifically config files, which I wouldn’t really consider code) to get Linux running on a consumer level machine was about 6 years ago with an even older wifi card on a laptop. That was pretty annoying…

        • grantmeaname
        • 7 years ago

        Yeah, I had to do it once in 2008 when I started using Ubuntu on a cheap Toshiba laptop, and that was only to get two displays running at two different refresh rates. It’s all I’ve run since, and I’ve not had to dig around and tinker with config files or anything of the sort.

      • nafhan
      • 7 years ago

      Also… part of the reason Android works so well: you only ever see it pre-installed and pre-configured. Try installing Android yourself sometime on unsupported hardware 🙂 The OEM’s have provided good (usually) drivers and tested everything out before shipping. When you install Linux on a random Dell with an upgraded video card, for instance, you may literally be the only person running that hardware configuration. It’s a different ballgame than Android.

      As an aside, this should be taken as compliment to Windows as well. MS has done a pretty impressive job supporting a massive amount of hardware.

        • kc77
        • 7 years ago

        That’s kind of ridiculous. What software is released without testing? I can’t think of any. I don’t care what the platform is. If you take software that’s meant to be installed by OEMs, like Android, then you should expect that it’s not going to be a plug and play affair…period full stop.

          • nafhan
          • 7 years ago

          Uhm… That was kind of my point. I was responding to someone who was comparing Android to desktop Linux, and it seemed like his main problem with desktop Linux was the install process on his hardware. Context is important aspect of reading comprehension…

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            Mea Culpa. That’s what happens when you are at work and try to sneak a post in.

      • blastdoor
      • 7 years ago

      In principle, I would kind of like to use Linux as a supplementary number-crunching machine. But I get the impression that Linux just isn’t where I need it to be in terms of usability to make that happen. The value of my time in learning what I would need to know in order to get Linux working (in the way I would need it to work) is likely greater than the cost of a more expensive, non-Linux solution.

      This is what a lot of DIY enthusiasts (particularly the younger folks who are still in school) just don’t understand. The value of a grown-up’s time far exceeds the cost difference between various computer components. This also explains why it is NOT irrational to pay 50% more for a computer that is 20% faster. The relevant metric is NOT price/performance. The relevant metric is value of the user’s time.

        • Corrado
        • 7 years ago

        Its been said 100000000x. Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing.

          • A_Pickle
          • 7 years ago

          Oh, hey, 1998 called, it wants its observations on Linux back.

    • Flatland_Spider
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]I've never been too impressed with Linux's driver support[/quote<] Which drivers?

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      Tell you what, you grab any new system, I guarantee you that I will have it running linux purring like a kitten before you have even had time to install your graphics driver in windows.

      Hell I’ll probably on the third level of doom 3 by the time you reach the entering of your windows key.

        • bjm
        • 7 years ago

        You grab a new system and the first thing you do is play Doom 3?

        • Ringofett
        • 7 years ago

        You’ve got to know you’re misleading folks a little with that comment. It was a little bit ago now, but the very first thing I did after purchasing a dm1z with an E350 APU on board was try to make it a linux-based HTPC, since Windows weighs a little heavily on the CPU side of the E350.

        Alas. As had been the case since I first started to, every year or so, experiment with linux on the desktop in 2000 or 2001, bleeding edge hardware support was no where to be found. It functioned in a basic sense, but zero acceleration.

        I know it is supported now, but it was supported in Win7 from day one, not however many months later.

        So, if someone did “grab any new system” then yes, linux would work perfectly — but only if its hardware wasn’t brand-spanking new in any area. Thats the fact of hardware support, everybody really knows it.

        That said, as someone else pointed out, driver support for an OS isn’t cheap which is why linux lags but perhaps a move like this by Valve could help turn the corner so that release-day drivers are made available not just for Windows, but linux as well. That’d be awesome, but we’re not there just yet.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        also, windows 8 installs pretty damn quickly, and comes with drivers built in that INCLUDE hardware acceleration.

        As well, linux lacks some basic functionality that i find extremely important. I’ve been using ubuntu since the 7.4 days, and have 11.10 still installed on my laptop. it’s fine, but it’s not comparable to windows. wanna watch netflix? sorry. no silverlight support. CAN you get it to work? yeah. it’s possible. is it a pain in the ass? sure is.

          • destroy.all.monsters
          • 7 years ago

          Well Silverlight isn’t exactly a truly cross platform – or even open – platform. I think Netflix screwed up by using it. Hasn’t MS decided they were going to EOL it anyway?

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            Silverlight was one of the dumbest decisions they made.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            they have EOL’d it. and it’s not great. that being said, regardless of the cause, netflix doesnt work on linux.

            • destroy.all.monsters
            • 7 years ago

            That’s what I’d heard. Good to hear I haven’t lost all my marbles. Still, when you talk to Mac people (which includes some of my friends and family) and they consider windows a pita – which to some small degree I agree.

            There’s dumbing down of the Control Panel even in Win 7 that I find utterly aggravating. I don’t think that it would take that much to improve the usability of any *nix to something approaching what Windows users are used to within reason.

            Also forgot to mention it in thread but I’m glad you got your mobo issues solved.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            i didn’t mind the changes made to win 7 control panel. in fact, i don’t know off hand of any differences between it and vista. I have been using the classic control panel forever, and besides programs and features and network and sharing centre (both in vista) i don’t recall any changes from XP. not that i cared about. i think they changed region, but that’s all i can think of.

            As far as fixing *nix to windows usability, sure. KDE is pretty much there. it functions almost the same as windows. it’s the other stuff they need to sort out. the .deb/rpm/tar.gz etc. the lack of business applications, no simply accounting, or ms office. you can claim that libre will solve the ms office part, you’d be wrong but you can claim it. i’ve worked for 2 organizations (one with thousands of employees) in the past few years that have rolled out libre and then switched back within 6 months.

            Idk. i [i<] like [/i<] linux, because i'm a computer guy (not a nerd, im too handsome), but it's not useful for your regular person at this stage. if android makes it's way to the desktop, it's possible, but so far i haven't been that satisfied with android either.... Thanks! i'm hoping to mail it in today!

            • A_Pickle
            • 7 years ago

            I love Netflix for going with it. I’m sorry, but Flash sucks, and Silverlight exists. If it had had some more acceptance, I think it would’ve taken off because unlike Flash, [i<]Silverlight works[/i<] (without eating all of my system resources). Hurry the ***k up, HTML5.

            • TakinYourPoints
            • 7 years ago

            Only other OS it is on is OS X. It has the popular operating systems covered but a Linux version would be nice.

            As for open, no, but neither is Flash

          • grantmeaname
          • 7 years ago

          There are FOSS silverlight alternatives. There isn’t netflix for linux because netflix refuses to play if it detects that your OS is linux.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            and your point is? CAN IT DO NETFLIX? no, no it can’t. the reason is irrelevant. the reality is that linux doesn’t do what most people want it to do EASILY. i realize it can be powerful, but it’s not to a point where it’s close to relevant, and even if the stars aligned for it to be, it’s still years away.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            The reality is that it could do netflix but for an arbitrary technical limitation- again, netflix checks the user agent string and refuses to play if linux is reported. There are fully working silverlight-compatible plugins for linux, like moonlight, and it’s disingenuous for you to suggest it’s related to the capability of the operating system.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            it’s not disingenuous. here we go:

            Can linux easily play netflix?

            A. Yes
            B. No

            the answer is B. CAN IT TECHNICALLY PLAY NETFLIX?

            A. Yes
            B. No

            The answer is A. DOES ANYBODY CARE IF IT CAN [i<] TECHNICALLY [/i<] DO SOMETHING IF IT IS [i<] IN REALITY [/i<] UNABLE TO DO SO? A. Yes B. No The answer is B.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            [quote=”sweatshopking”<]As well, linux lacks some basic functionality that i find extremely important... sorry. no silverlight support.[/quote<] You don't think that's disingenuous? Not even a little? That's a downright lie, but you couldn't let the facts get in the way of your pro-microsoft FUD, clearly.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            how about MS office? i’ve used libre, and it’s good, for being free, but it’s not office. not even close. Hardware excel on my sisters e-350? not last time i checked. wine is a mess, and while i appreciate the few applications that actually work on it, it’s hardly a realistic replacement for the millions of windows applications. many of the applications that DO have linux natives, suck. 7zip, last time i checked was command line only on linux. i’d consider a GUI basic functionality, as i’m not the only one that uses my PC’s, and there are a ton of programs that have them on windows, but are missing them on *nix.

            I don’t know what else to say. if you think that linux is an equally functional pc vs windows from a usability (command line every thirty seconds????) vs windows, then i simply agree to disagree. i LIKE linux, and use it. but my wife can’t stand it. my mom can’t figure it out. none of my applications work. if i SIMPLY browsed the web, and watched local or network video, fine. but i don’t. i still use it. but for the rest of my family, if ubuntu is running, it’s reboot time.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            There is no reason to use 7zip in linux. There are graphical interfaces for compression and decompression and usually support all formats out of the box.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]how about MS office? i've used libre, and it's good, for being free, but it's not office. not even close.[/quote<] Sure, they're different--in terms of UI, dramatically so. I prefer Libreoffice, though I recognize that that's certainly not a widely-held opinion. There aren't many functionality differences where only MS Office and not libreoffice can do something, outside of the steaming pile of poo that is MS Access. [quote<]Hardware excel on my sisters e-350? not last time i checked.[/quote<] 'Hardware excel' is not a thing. Are you referring to something like UVD? UVD's been supported on linux since 2008. [quote<]7zip, last time i checked was command line only on linux[/quote<] File roller, which comes built into Ubuntu, does literally everything that 7zip does except for batch processing, which you can easily do with p7zip in the command line. In fact, File Roller supports [i<]more[/i<] formats and compression schemes. So we're clear, you took a computer that had best-in-the-business functionality at a task and installed a mediocre program that partially replicates that functionality [i<]just so you could complain the functionality was missing[/i<]. Again, doesn't that seem a bit disingenuous? [quote<]I don't know what else to say. if you think that linux is an equally functional pc vs windows from a usability (command line every thirty seconds????) vs windows, then i simply agree to disagree.[/quote<] I don't use the command line more than once every couple of weeks. In many cases, when I do use it, it's because I prefer the CLI utility to its GUI equivalent (top vs System Monitor, for example), not because the GUI equivalent doesn't exist. My girlfriend, her best friend, and three of my housemates run it, and maybe one or one and a half of those five people is computer savvy, maybe.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<] 'Hardware excel' is not a thing. Are you referring to something like UVD? UVD's been supported on linux since 2008. [/quote<] I was referring to UVD video, and because it's "supported" (which i'm aware of), doesn't mean it works. i assume it's a driver issue, but last time i tried, no UVD on linux worked on the e-350. it might be working now, but it's too much of a pita to have to constantly check to see if it's doing what windows does immediately. i DO a lot of batch processing, so your argument is that i should use the cli? that's not an argument. you're basically saying "it doesn't do what you want, so it's your fault, learn the new thing". file roller DOESN'T do what i want, and neither does 7zip. it does on windows. you can't win that one, because you're wrong. [quote<] I don't use the command line more than once every couple of weeks. [/quote<] you're just proving my point now. How many times do you think i use the CLI on windows? once a year? MAYBE?

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            You honestly have problems.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            ah. i see. you failed to make your argument, so resort to personal attacks. i understand now. ok.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            You can’t reason a man out of a position that he didn’t reason his way into. If you are so delusional that your mind is made up despite the extensively demostrated facts, sharing more evidence is not going to convince you of anything.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            delusional?

            IF linux was = or superior to windows, EVERYONE would switch. it’s not. you think i’m delusional for thinking it isn’t? there are plenty of things you could say i’m delusional about, like a belief that i’m charming, handsome, strong, intelligent, etc. but this one? sorry, my friend, you’re just [i<] wrong. [/i<] edit: i should clarify that i'm talking about desktop linux, for the end user. it's clearly better for servers, and power users can gain a lot from it. i'm talking about grandma's or wives.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            Right, like when AMD produced clearly superior processors in the early 2000s and their marketshare shot up instead of declining? I hope you can figure out the holes in your argument. Besides, I never argued that Linux was superior to Windows. I came into the conversation solely to counter your omnipresent Microsoft FUD, because I was sick of seeing it. I argued that Linux had access to Silverlight content and a competent office suite, that everyday users can understand and use Ubuntu effectively, and that File Roller has all the capabilities of 7zip. All of those statements are verifiably true, and I’ve repeatedly substantiated my claims, which you continue to ignore.

            If you weren’t delusional, you would be responding to my actual arguments. The things I said, not the things you think I’m implying. And when you did so, you would use facts, not FUD.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            no. you argued that linux could play netflix TECHNICALLY, which was something i never disputed. Even though my point about netflix not working was accurate, you still needed to counter it. then you claim that i have microsoft “fud” rather than just understanding, like most people do, that linux on the desktop is not in a state realistically competitive to MS or Apple.

            file roller, by your own admission, does NOT have all the capabilities of 7zip, so how do you reconcile your 2 statements?

            I’ve used facts. you just don’t like them.

            A. netflix doesn’t work on linux – true
            B. Libre office IS NOT AS COMPLETE AS MS OFFICE, even if you JUST count access, which you may understandably dislike, but people still use -true
            C. WHEN I WAS USING IT there was no functioning UVD on the e-350, likely due to AMD drivers – true
            D. File roller doesn’t have all the features of 7zip – true
            E. Use of the terminal in linux is more common than on windows – depends, but my anecdotal evidence suggests it is, suggesting linux has a higher learning curve – true
            F. Windows has more software, and better support for drivers and software updates – true
            which statement do you have a problem with? let me know where the FUD is, and i’ll clean it up!

            edit: Either you had to head out (probable) or you’ve declined to clear up my errors. hopefully you can set me straight later!

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]IF linux was = or superior to windows, EVERYONE would switch[/quote<] So Android is better than WP7?

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            clearly.

            at this time, android has far more features than wp7.

            I love windows phone 7, but it’s an aesthetic preference. i find it to be more stable, and i like some of the specific features it brings, but android currently has more. whether windows 8 changes that, we’ll have to wait and see. Linux also has a great many things going for it, and if you like that specific feature set, by all means. I stick to wp7, and some people stick to linux. I wouldn’t claim wp7 is BETTER than android. in some aspects, sure.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            Well I would argue that strong-arming developers into only using your system is not a feature, than vendor lockin is not a feature, and that brand momentum is not a feature, but these are all things that cause sales of inferior products.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            who’s strong arming? nobody is forcing anybody to design anything. and how is that relevant? nobody is talking about the reasons for Linux’s position, it has reasons. I’ve never questioned that. I’m merely saying that AT THIS POINT, linux can’t do all the stuff windows can do AS EASILY as it is done on windows.

            in fact, i’m quite surprised this is even being disputed.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            I was speaking more generally my last post than specifically about Windows, but MS definitely uses underhanded tactics to get devs to make games Xbox exclusive.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            they do make agreements, but so does sony. it’s how that market goes. nintendo and sega before that. i don’t disagree with your points, bobbin, and i like and use linux. I just don’t think it’s equal to windows at this point. that’s all.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            I didn’t say others didn’t strong arm developers, just that who has the strongest arm shouldn’t be considered a feature.

            • Ringofett
            • 7 years ago

            Jesus. This whole thread went down like liberals and conservatives fighting over welfare.

            Difference is, this is much more clear-cut. sweatshopking is absolutely correct. The vast majority cares not if there is FOSS anything, much less FOSS silverlight alternatives… They don’t even care what silverlight is exactly or what it does. They care that linux can not easily or cleanly run Netflix, which was ssk’s point. Linux/FOSS defenders can’t accept their own platforms shortcomings; it’s part of the immaturity that also plays a rule in turning outsiders off.

            • Nobody
            • 7 years ago

            Longtime observer – Firstime poster

            Are you seriously suggesting that Netflix not running on Linux is somehow a platform shortcoming?

            By that logic the fact that the X360 can’t run Gran Turismo 5 is a platform shortcoming rather than a business decision.

            Have you ever asked Netflix to make a client for Linux?

            To those of you asking for office alternatives – have you tried Google docs for businesses?
            Many people are eagerly awaiting an official google drive sync app..
            With sync and collaborative editing it should be pretty compelling

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            if the xbox didn’t have racing games, it would be a platform shortcoming. netflix isn’t just a game. it’s a huge monster of a site, that has become the only method of video for millions of people. you’ll notice both the ps3 and xbox have netflix.

            I’ve tried google docs, but wasn’t a huge fan. partially because i do most of my work when i’m not connected to the internet.

            [quote<] With sync and collaborative editing it should be pretty compelling [/quote<] like the new office has?

            • Nobody
            • 7 years ago

            I’m sorry I think were fundamentally seeing differently.
            Netflix doesn’t exist on Linux because Netflix hasn’t targeted the platform. That’s not a “shortcoming” of the platform. That’s Netflix not seeing a compelling business case because people on Linux aren’t asking loud enough.

            You say you’re not comfortable with the command line. I’m not comfortable with being coddled and walled in by microsoft and apple. For some of us computers are for Computing but they just want everyone consuming content in a constant stream so they can dip in at anytime and assure investors.

            I am not their product.

            Do you know that the command line is tool that allows you to perform nearly any function you care to imagine – did you know that it supports drag and drop – do you know anything about pipes?

            Valve is right to be concerned – Microsoft/Apple have no business dictating what programs a person can and cant run. They’re overstepping their charter and are a threat to information and computing

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            First, I’m aware of the justification of the situation with netflix. I was the one that brought it up. i’m said repeatedly that i (and most customers) don’t care WHY netflix doesn’t work. i don’t think “oh well, purchase A has X, but purchase B doesn’t; But that’s due to Y, so maybe i’ll buy it anyway thanks to the justification”. that makes no sense. To use your examply, If i wanted xbox live, which ms COULD port, but doesn’t because they don’t see a compelling business case for it, which platform is going to suit my needs? a ps3? or an xbox. Even though IT COULD TECHNICALLY BE PUT ONTO A PS3, AND IT’S JUST MS BEING JERKS, it still is only on xbox. and if i want it (like i want simple netflix) then i’m going to buy the xbox. The reason doesn’t matter. not to regular people. they have a list, and some checkmarks, and windows fills all the boxes, and linux doesn’t. until that changed, for WHATEVER reason, it’s going to stay where it is. it’s starting to fill more boxes, as more stuff gets linux ports, for a variety of reasons, most of them business related. But today, it’s not there.

            while i’m happy you like command line, it’s not for the masses. I do use the terminal, and i realize it can do everything. if you’re leaning towards an open, messy os, rather than a controlled one, go for it. that’s why there are choices. My point is just that you’re a minority.

            As for ms/apple having no business dictating, we’ll see. certainly it’s not illegal, at least it hasn’t been deemed so yet. I’m not sure how they’re deemed a “threat to information”.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            I use the CLI on Windows pretty much every day. Of course I do tech support for an internet company and ipconfig is still the best way to get vital information.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            in that case, sure, it makes sense. if i was doing support for linux, i’d expect to use it daily as well.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            I’ve installed Ubuntu on my mom’s laptop and she used it just fine for years without ever going to the CLI.

            She recently had to start using windows again because she needed MS Office. That’s what happens from living under a monopoly. She didn’t need any features of Office other than compatibility. As of Ubuntu 10.04, Linux has been perfectly usable for a complete layman. There are two problems, it’s not as useable for people who just know a little bit, and lack of software support.

            That’s the next group of people that Linux needs to start working towards making feel comfortable. People who are comfortable poking around in control panel, but not command line.

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<][b<]7zip, last time i checked was command line only on linux.[/b<] [/quote<] Nope. Archive Manager supports everything from zip to tar (and pretty much any format you install). It's standard and a part of Gnome. It's supported 7zip for a very long time. If I had to guess I'd say at least 10 years.

            • grantmeaname
            • 7 years ago

            He means the program p7zip, which he installed so that he could be frustrated by how little it did.

            • Corrado
            • 7 years ago

            I agree with you 100%. Linux is great for certain things, but so is having a lifted pickup on 33″ tires and a V8 Turbo Diesel or a Smart Car. That doesn’t mean it does ALL things well for most people.

            Theres a reason that so many people buy small SUVs and Crossovers. Its not that they’re the biggest, the fastest, the sportiest, the best handling, most economical… its that they do EVERYTHING well enough.

            There is no magic bullet in the PC realm.

          • Deanjo
          • 7 years ago

          Guess you haven’t heard that Netflix is transitioning away from silverlight since it is deprecated. Also a majority of Netflix is watched on non silverlight capable devices.

          Also the three major graphics vendors also include hardware acceleration OOB (intel with their opensource driver, ATI with their opensource driver and Nvidia through Nouveau). With windows after a period of time (with new hardware being released) it no longer offers OOB support your card as well. For example if I install Windows 7 it does not have any support for my GTX-580 until I have either ran windows update which presents it with a woefully old driver or download and install the one from nvidia. A lot of the drivers from Windows update also do not include openGL support for their respective video cards.

          Windows 8 still is a long install process compared to pretty much any linux install (with the exception of those building from source in a scenario like gentoo or LFS). To install linux for example it takes less then 6 minutes including the installation of a video driver blob on the same machine when with windows it takes well over an hour to get it to the same level of functionality.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            Idk if you read what I posted but your post is mostly not applicable. I’ve already said I don’t care about reasons, and issues I had may be fixed, but it’s too annoying to check all the time.

            Netflix running on non Silverlight isn’t important, as we’re not talking about those devices, so why are you bringing them up? its not a conversation on Silverlight. What Netflix does in the future has nothing to do with today.

            If you’d read my post, you’d realize I said the issue with uvd was likely driver related and was probably fixed by now, but at the time, was working on windows, but wasn’t ported to Linux yet.

            Ubuntu 12.04 didn’t take 6 minutes on my rig last week, and Win 8 takes about 15 minutes. Either way, it doesn’t matter. They’re both pretty fast. 5-10 minutes is not something in worried about in the grand run of things.

    • Bensam123
    • 7 years ago

    You guys know what a false dichotomy is, right? There are two black and white options and you have to choose between specifically those two. In other words, you have to upgrade to Windows 8 or change to something else.

    No one NEEDS to upgrade to anything. No one NEEDS to stop using Windows 7. No one NEEDS to switch to Nix instead of Windows 8. As other people pointed out. If W8 is a flop (which it more then likely will be), you simply don’t need to upgrade to it.

    It’s entirely possible, even plausible, for MS to switch directions if they see a lackluster adoption of their new OS… like Vista. People seem to think that the company is going to die too, which simply isn’t true. Just because they’re headed down a certain path right now DOESN’T mean they need to continue down it in the future.

    There are a ton of options here and everyone is making is seem so black and white. As far as Nix goes, gamers wont switch to it till it gets decent emulation support for directx so users can simply play games they want to in it. There isn’t going to be a initiative to transition game developers to a OS with 1% of their user base.

    Valve is full of lofty ideals, but they are just that – ideals.

      • Flatland_Spider
      • 7 years ago

      No one needs to upgrade until there is a giant security hole that won’t get fixed unless someone drops some cash because the OS in question is outside the support window.

      MS is getting close to the edge. Lack of presence in the smartphone and tablet market allows other companies to claim mindshare, and once people defect and realize they are just as productive without MS, they’re not going to go back.

      Or the game houses will just switch to OpenGL which is more cross platform anyway. They already have to use OpenGL for OS X anyway.

        • Grigory
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]No one needs to upgrade until there is a giant security hole that won't get fixed unless someone drops some cash because the OS in question is outside the support window.[/quote<] True, but that won't happen until at least another version of Windows is released, probably more.

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        Isn’t XP still supported as far as security patches go? That’s a long time to sit on W7, two new OS’s later (if you look at MSs past release cycle) and a few more to go. Quick Google says it’s good through 2014. So XP is good through three new OSs and probably a SP for W8 will be out by the time XP reaches end of life.

        How do you equate productivity on a smartphone and tablet to a full blown OS on a desktop… or anywhere near close?

        Only a handful of games have been ported to OSX, just like with Nix.

      • MadManOriginal
      • 7 years ago

      You’re ignoring all the new PCs that will come with Windows 8 installed, as usual for MS that will give them a huge instant install base.

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        And there will be a option to have W7 installed too… I’m sure you remember how OEM adoption of Vista went. Windows XP was still there for an install option because people wanted it. Heck even after Vista debuted and MS pushed it hardcore, people still animately resisted it.

        I mean nothing has changed. We’ve already experienced all of this with Vista and W7s release. You simply have to look at past history.

    • c1arity
    • 7 years ago

    Having used Windows 8 since they released the release preview I have little to no complaints. Sure, it has its bugs, sure the new start menu takes some getting use to, but I’ve found it to be very snappy and reliable overall. Working in the tech industry as tech support and as a technician, I mostly see people bitching and complaining about the metro themed start menu. These are usually the same people that used it for all of 15 minutes and drew their conclusion off of that.

    Obviously first impressions are important even in software, but I think once people use it all this talk about it being the second coming of vista or the end of Microsoft is being melodramatic at best.

    The comparison to Vista cracks me up. People seem to forget that Vista was the first OS that Microsoft launched as both 64 and 32-bit in the consumer world. Sure there was an XP 64-bit, but almost nobody used it and anyone that did saw very quickly that 64-bit driver development was close to zero at that point. As such, people still had some issues with 64-bit drivers and software incompatibility when Vista launched. Microsoft gave a lot of people an excuse to stick with an ancient OS, so they did. With that, people kept their software from 2001 as well. That’s a recipe for disaster. I’m not saying Windows Vista was without problems, because they were definitely there. But the launch of Windows 8 isn’t even a close comparison.

    Windows 8 is launching in a completely different environment. A lot of people now use Windows 7 64-bit so you can “x” that out as being a problem. Not to mention they didn’t completely scrap the development of 8 like they did with Vista at one point. The changes as a whole aren’t nearly as dramatic as when Microsoft went from XP to Vista. If Windows 7 was Vista SE, Windows 8 feels like Windows 7 SE, at least to me.

    Also, I lost respect for Gabe Newell a long time ago. Linux is awesome for a lot of things, but it’s not quite ready to compete with Windows or OS X in primetime as a desktop OS for gamers. It’s come a long way in the last 10 years, but it’s not quite there yet. With an article like this you’d expect to him to do all Linux development. He can’t and he won’t because that’s just bad business.

    • Ryu Connor
    • 7 years ago

    Gabe also hated the PS3. Then ended up doing an about face years later.

    • oldog
    • 7 years ago

    I would suggest, based on a quick read of some of the comments from AllThingsD, that to draw any conclusions about our digital future based on Gabe’s ramblings is foolish. Heck read it for yourself…

    [url<]http://allthingsd.com/20120725/valves-gabe-newell-on-the-future-of-games-wearable-computers-windows-8-and-more/[/url<]

    • AGerbilWithAFootInTheGrav
    • 7 years ago

    Who cares about MS, this is great for openess of PC as a platform. If anything games are missing on Linux… if all of my Steam game collection worked on Linux I’d never ever think about Windows 8 or otherwise for my personal use.

    • Cannyone
    • 7 years ago

    Personally (I am a Steam Customer) I could not care less about Windows 8 and I will resist buying anything from Microsoft until they show me that they are listening (which they definitely haven’t been of late). Windows 7 works fine and I somehow don’t believe that Windows 8’s release will suddenly change the entire market. Plus companies like EA are not going to let Microsoft take over their software distribution anymore than they will let Steam do so.

    Plus if a significant portion of the PC gaming market isn’t using Win8. Then Microsoft can’t insist that companies only publish PC games through their online store. And that is just talking about digital distribution… You have to remember that some of us still like to own a disc, and do our shopping at a local store (if for no other reason than to have someone to bitch at when something doesn’t work right!).

    That said: If Dear old Gabe can figure out a way to get all of their PC titles running under Linux, then I say More Power to Ya! I have no problem with switching to Linux. And I would bet that if enough people were using Linux; even companies like Nvidia would try to be a bit more cooperative.

    • Johannesburg
    • 7 years ago

    Gabe is likely referring to the windows on arm built in software market.

      • derFunkenstein
      • 7 years ago

      That’s a bit of a stretch considering Steam isn’t a Metro app. He seems to think Microsoft is going to go all metro all the time. If they do then he’s right. Catastrophe.

    • TaBoVilla
    • 7 years ago

    I wouldn’t diss Microsoft so easily. I personally like Linux very much: it’s a semi-niche consumer product, it has a larger server install base, but it’s just that, it’s way too fragmented for mainstream market adoption and widespread distribution of higher performance consumer apps.

    Developers wouldn’t have enough time to either develop, correct, support, improve, debug nor optimize any app for all conceivable possible distributions, you just can’t expect “the community” to provide for support, unconditionally, forever.. that is just nonesense.

    Now, the Linux crow has to do something: it’s unite or fail. And honestly, I think that’s what Google is trying to do.. from the ground up, from portable devices to the highest performing machines on earth, they’ll try and unify all software to work over a single linux kernel, distro and basic hardware architecture, but even they are suffering from fragmentation.. and they are just beginning.. what gives! =/

    The near future is certainly not bright for anyone. I had high hopes for Microsoft this time around, with Win8, WinRT, WinPhone8, their next Xbox, etc, but it looks like well have to wait till the following generation (Win9?) for true unification and widespread adoption.

      • RenatoPassos
      • 7 years ago

      You forgot one option: some big company (like Valve) chooses a distro, likely the most popular one, and write games, apps and services for it. Since it’s on their best interest that this distro works flawlessly with their products, they begin to assign some of their developers to contribute to that distro. Now assume other companies would follow suit: they, most likely, would also choose the most popular distro and support it, I guess.

      The only problem is that it could backfire like the Android thing (i.e. everyone wants to build their distro and make it the most popular), but I think it is less likely in this case: the smartphone companies are actually trying to sell hardware and using the software to a) differentiate their products, so their phones don’t feel like commodities; and b) maybe try and keep their customers, since they are so used to their UI and other stuff. And I don’t think gaming studios would like to spend more with QA than they already do when it comes to PC games production.

      • stmok
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]I personally like Linux very much: it's a semi-niche consumer product, it has a larger server install base, but it's just that, it's way too fragmented for mainstream market adoption and widespread distribution of higher performance consumer apps.[/quote<] Your thinking is flawed because it completely ignores the intent of what Linus Torvalds was pushing. ie: Give people free rein to pursue what is best for them; and make sure they contribute back the changes they make. Accept/Reject contributions based on the goals of the project itself. Fragmentation is intentional; because you want individuals to explore and create in all sorts of directions. You then let Nature take its course: Let the crap implementations fall to the way-side, while the good stuff becomes popular and is actively maintained. Have a good look at DistroWatch database summary (as of 23 July 2012). => Number of all distributions in the database: 723 => Number of active distributions in the database: 322 => Number of dormant distributions: 68 => Number of discontinued distributions: 333 => Number of distributions on the waiting list: 301 Dormant or discontinued => 68 + 333 Active => 322 Total => 723 55.46% of distros die. 44.54% of distros remain alive. The whole point is to innovate through a human being's free-will to address their computing problems/deficiencies/weaknesses in a parallel manner. (Since all sorts of people do it). Its not about capturing marketshare in order to make massive bucks. The growth of market will be a symptom of people satisfying a need. [quote<]Developers wouldn't have enough time to either develop, correct, support, improve, debug nor optimize any app for all conceivable possible distributions, you just can't expect "the community" to provide for support, unconditionally, forever.. that is just nonesense.[/quote<] Valve is helping upstream developers like the Intel Linux graphics drivers guys as well as the Linux Kernel guys to correct, optimise, and debug things. So that way, the changes will flow onto distros, as they grab the next upstream snapshot in preparing for their next major version releases. This relieves game developers from the burden, as they then can focus on their game development. What Gabe is doing is laying down the framework by working with upstream open source projects in order to make it easier for the game devs down the line. This effectively nullifies your point. [quote<]Now, the Linux crow has to do something: it's unite or fail. And honestly, I think that's what Google is trying to do.. from the ground up, from portable devices to the highest performing machines on earth, they'll try and unify all software to work over a single linux kernel, distro and basic hardware architecture, but even they are suffering from fragmentation.. and they are just beginning.. what gives! =/[/quote<] You don't understand or know what the open source community is doing, but you are all too happy to make suggestions based on ignorance...Can we say "ability to analyze problems" = fail? Google works on the reference platforms as provided by Samsung and Motorola Mobility. (The latter they now own). They leave it up to hardware folks or phone providers to make customizations. This allows others to have free-rein in deciding what they want to do. Google only provides the core infrastructure, it's up to the providers to implement the final elements. On the other side of the coin, you can't do that with MS. MS has to pay OEMs to create the impression everything is great. In reality, OEMs are only supporting them just in case, if MS created something useful that sells...This is why MS have decided to start making their own design: See their Surface tablet. [quote<]The near future is certainly not bright for anyone. I had high hopes for Microsoft this time around, with Win8, WinRT, WinPhone8, their next Xbox, etc, but it looks like well have to wait till the following generation (Win9?) for true unification and widespread adoption.[/quote<] Central control results in the user having no choices. Microsoft has to take careful attention of their target market. They dictate how things change based on what they perceive is going on. eg: Metro on the desktop is based on a survey from a specific group (those that do not disable the surveying mechanism in Windows); as such its not based on the whole MS desktop audience...The result is a flawed conclusion that has been acted upon. You don't have this problem with Linux. If something sucks, you always have a choice to do something about it: Whether it be to select another GUI, go with another distro, build your own distro to meet your own needs, or pay someone to build you one. Isn't that what American principles are fundamentally based on? Individualism and innovation as a result of individuals coming up with their own ideas. (It worked for the first 150 yrs...But not for the last 50 yrs as flawed left/socialist/progressive policies have been implemented and extended to ridiculous levels. The EPA now hampers businesses instead of just keep them accountable to poor environmental practices.) The point is this: With Microsoft (and the centralized control model), you are dictated to. You have no choice as to what you want. You take what you're given. Like it or lump it. Want to do something drastic? Then apply for a different license. Etc. Microsoft stumbles in a serial manner when it comes to something like GUI changes. And if they do it in a way you don't agree with, you have to wait/hope they change in the next version! The benefits of centralization is that its standardized. Meaning its easier to manage from a developer perspective, but its at the cost of user control...But standardization itself is a security problem because it allows one to write a single bit of malware that affects a large audience base. See Stuxnet, Flame, etc. With Linux, you just grab the tools, code, etc and apply. The open model fits human nature, as its flexible and less restrictive. It can be simple as a ARM-based Raspberry PI to a Android device, to even the world's supercomputers running X86, PowerPC, or Nvidia (Telsa) GPGPU architectures. Fragmentation is a price one pays as one gives control to the user (The user and developer are interchangeable)...But that also means hackers cannot write malware that hits all Linux users. They can only hurt a small subset. (Its demonstrated in the real world, where hackers are forced to attack distro servers themselves...This forces distro projects to become more responsible for their actions. If you do a poor job, you pay in reputation, and your audience goes elsewhere. You will never see Microsoft openly admit that their Windows Update approach is flawed and vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks. They will also never admit what they did wrong or what they did to resolve the problem to prevent it from happening again. Mainly because they could be legally held accountable.) Overall, it is nonsensical jabbering when one promotes how one development model is better than another; when its shown in the real world that every model has their own flaws.

        • TaBoVilla
        • 7 years ago

        Thanks for the long reply mate, you have very valid arguments here. Just wanted to let you know I read them =) Cheers!

    • tbone8ty
    • 7 years ago

    Linux is great but still has a long way to go….

    I think windows 8 is going to be great for gaming…just look at this article

    [url<]https://techreport.com/discussions.x/23308[/url<]

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      Loading jpeg 5 time slower then instead of 20 time slower is not what makes a great gaming platform.

      A gaming distribution system like Steam is at the root… I wouldn’t be surprised if Steam extend their services to become a general app store for native pay apps.

      • Ringofett
      • 7 years ago

      Didn’t watch the video, but honestly never noticed a lag in text tendering in Windows 7, which is mostly what it talks about, OS elements and not gaming. Any new machine I’d buy a win 8 license for, why not, but my current gaming machine? It’s not all that old, so it’ll probably spend its entire life with Win7, or, maybe, an upgrade to Win9…… or linux, if that ever comes together nicely.

    • ltcommander.data
    • 7 years ago

    I’m guessing Valve was originally envisioning Mac as the Windows alternative which is why they ported Steam and Source Engine over there first. The introduction of the Mac App Store no doubt killed a lot of Steam’s momentum on Mac. So now they are pushing Linux as their alternate revenue source.

      • derFunkenstein
      • 7 years ago

      That’s the most reasonable explanation I can come up with.

        • sschaem
        • 7 years ago

        How about the fact the windows8 also force Metro app to be installed only by the Microsoft app store?
        Valve will see zero distribution revenue for ANY of the Metro games to be released, not a bright future.

        I think Valve see a pattern. Apple , google and MS wants total control of all software distribution.
        Valve want s a piece too since the profit is insane. Its a download service that charge 30% of revenue, no wonder…

        Vavle is being shut out by the OS makers.
        Only Linux seem like a long term viable solution to there business model.

          • derFunkenstein
          • 7 years ago

          It’s far more limiting than just “has to be installed from the Windows App Store.” It’s also that they can’t see each other and they can’t use plugins. If they can’t see each other, and if they can’t use plugins (so Steam can’t install games to itself and launch those games), then why would Steam be a Metro app?

      • blastdoor
      • 7 years ago

      Great point. Valve isn’t quite the objective third party whose only interest is the purity of open gaming. They want everyone to use Steam, which is certainly not “open” (unless we now define “open” as DRM).

      • syndicatedragon
      • 7 years ago

      That makes sense. They seem totally unwilling to fix the horrible OS X port of Steam.

        • khands
        • 7 years ago

        It took them years to get it right on Windows, give OSX some time. I’m sure Steam on Linux will suck as well for a while.

    • ChangWang
    • 7 years ago

    Hmmm… What are the odds that Valve will roll its own Linux distro tailored directly towards gaming….. Or will they just deal with the most popular distros like Ubuntu and Fedora? Stuff to think about!

      • hechacker1
      • 7 years ago

      They are already working with Ubuntu to start out, but it’s not limited to it.

      I could imagine a Ubuntu Steam version that has all the graphics tweaks and Steam ready to go out of the box.

      • Madman
      • 7 years ago

      Most popular is Mint. Ubuntu was ruined, and Fedora was never that popular. [url<]http://distrowatch.com/[/url<]

        • ChangWang
        • 7 years ago

        True indeed, but you know what I mean. 🙂

        • l33t-g4m3r
        • 7 years ago

        I don’t like distros that default to Gnome. Mageia is #3 BTW. I do hear Mint has custom improvements, so maybe it’s not so bad after all. Still like to have KDE as an option.

        • grantmeaname
        • 7 years ago

        Every website but distrowatch disagrees. Like Ars, or Wikipedia, or OEM adoption rate, or the activity of the support forums…

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        i’ve tried 3 times on 3 different machines using 3 different versions of mint, and have yet to have an install that worked properly.

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      Why would they make their own OS? What benefits would it give to them compared to the amount of time and support they would spend on it?

        • Flatland_Spider
        • 7 years ago

        Tailored graphics drivers, and metered updates. It’s easier to hit stationary target then a moving one.

          • Bensam123
          • 7 years ago

          So, Nvidia and AMD would go out of their way to make a custom version of their graphics drivers for Valves OS? Or are you implying Valve would reverse engineer Valve and AMDs drivers and attempt to hobble together their own?

          What does a stationary target have to do with Valves OS? Or OS’s in general? We have APIs that make stationary targets. Simply adding a console tag line to things doesn’t make it true. Even consoles operate on those very same APIs as well.

          • Corrado
          • 7 years ago

          So you want them to make a console?

      • Flatland_Spider
      • 7 years ago

      Probably not good, but the tea readers say they could release their own “console” with a Linux based OS.

        • cynan
        • 7 years ago

        It sure as heck better be a Linux based console.

        How many Steam users do you suppose are wealthy enough to build a dedicated Steam gaming system? And even if enough were, who would want to? Until proven otherwise, Windows is, and will be (at least through the life of Windows 8), the OS of choice for gaming PCs for most people who, you know, do other stuff as well.

      • just brew it!
      • 7 years ago

      Their best bet is probably to go with Ubuntu LTS and call it a day. Supporting multiple distros (many of which have rapid release cycles) would be nightmarish.

    • cycomiko
    • 7 years ago

    So. What he is saying is Win8 is a failure, therefore I am running to a software package that has minimal impact on the worlds OS usage figures.

    Or, is what he is saying actually different to what his actual concern is. Microsoft Store competing with his business model.

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      The issue is not compete, but total control.

      Can Valve compete of iOS? can they build a cool game store ? no, they are not allowed.

      Can Vavle install a game app store for Metro? no, they are not allowed. You cant install a Metro app without the store.

      Valve see the writing on the wall.. the last bastion is linux and this could pay out huge if Linux become the next ‘windows’ as a desktop gaming platform.

    • hechacker1
    • 7 years ago

    And it’s a great thing that Valve is going out of their way to hire programmers to make Steam and OpenGL linux games work better.

    They’ve already submitted many patches to fix bugs with Mesa (opengl) and graphics drivers. However, that mostly affects the open source drivers, so Nvidia and ATI will just have to hope their closed drivers work just as well.

    I’m pretty sure Valve is going to release a Steam box that runs Intel graphics (core i7 ivy maybe) but has highly tuned drivers and software. It could work, even if the graphic card is weak. It’s probably not that far off the older console gpu assuming a good platform and drivers.

    And all you would pay for is the hardware and packaging, as Linux is free, along with thousands of applications. Your steam box could act as a media and server gateway as well when it’s not gaming.

    I’m surprised they didn’t go with an AMD APU, but at the same time, Intel is one of the few companies that open sources all their drivers, and has many teams working on Linux code, from the kernel to the graphics stack.

    AMD open sourced their hardware, but doesn’t pay anybody to actually write open source drivers. So I could see how Valve had an easy choice.

      • BobbinThreadbare
      • 7 years ago

      Did you just say you’re surprised they didn’t pick the hardware that you just made up hypothetically?

        • DeadOfKnight
        • 7 years ago

        My thoughts exactly.

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      Get that out of your head, its never going to happen. It already failed on paper.

      • haugland
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]They've already submitted many patches to fix bugs with Mesa...[/quote<] Black Mesa?

        • CuttinHobo
        • 7 years ago

        Well I suppose there was a lot to fix over at Black Mesa after ‘The Incident’. Also, it takes a long time to fix something when your best man’s tool of choice is a crowbar.

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]AMD open sourced their hardware, but doesn't pay anybody to actually write open source drivers. So I could see how Valve had an easy choice.[/quote<] That is completely false. AMD not only has an opensource graphics development team but they also have hired a few of the individuals were were writing them pre documentation. [url<]http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTQzNQ[/url<]

    • tviceman
    • 7 years ago

    The combo of windows 8, and every major player having their own app store is going to force Valve into the hardware business whether they want to go that route or not. But would that be a bad thing? Valve comes to market with an open source console that can play your entire catalog via streaming and local play. And they come out with an apps for android, iOS, and windows that can stream any game you have on steam to any device powerful enough to display at least 720p live streaming.

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago

      What a terrible future.

      Most likely ?

      Apple release an iTV or maybe iPlay ios device that include console level HW, and instantly gets hundreds of thousand of developers ready to make 10ft experience apps for your living room (including games)
      Of course using a close system with all control and revenue going to Apple.

      The new ps and xbox will struggle with only a handfull of AAA title being released, and that market might not sustain both and will be EOL products.

      Linux is the last bastion for PC enthusiast. I think Metro is going to make Linux extremely popular.
      And my take is that Valve knows it and want to be ready for the influx.

    • l33t-g4m3r
    • 7 years ago

    My thoughts exactly, and Windows acolytes be damned. Microsoft is dead, committed suicide. The wrong people are at the helm, as this started with Ballmer, Kaneko, and associates. They aren’t listening to the users at all, which anyone who listened to the kaneko interview would know, and they have their own perverted vision of how to monetize the OS through Apps. Their loss. If people don’t use your OS, you won’t make money, Apps or not.

    You’d have thought Microsoft would have learned with Microsoft BOB, but now we have BOB 2.0 instead.

    As for linux, I like what I’m hearing about the new kernel and KDE versions. Once distros get their act together, we could see some good things.

    Also, I’m keeping my eye out on [url=http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mageia<]Mageia[/url<]. They may be the real ticket to a usable linux desktop experience.

      • EsotericLord
      • 7 years ago

      Bob didn’t kill Microsoft. Vista didn’t kill Microsoft. Even the catastrophe that was Windows ME didn’t kill Microsoft.

      Microsoft has been making record money recently, with $18.06 BILLION in revenue last quarter. Xbox is up. Office is up. SQL/server is up. Windows 7 still has a fresh taste. Windows 8 may hurt (no one knows for sure yet. I still remember all the gloom and doom predictions for the Wii, and look how that worked out), but it won’t kill Microsoft. At the very least it will be successful on the tablet side of things.

      This is coming from a PC tech not exactly excited about W8.

        • MadManOriginal
        • 7 years ago

        Away with ye and your pesky facts!

          • sweatshopking
          • 7 years ago

          i ♥ you

          • Arclight
          • 7 years ago

          Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! EsotericLord is being repressed

        • l33t-g4m3r
        • 7 years ago

        Well, ok. I see your point, as even if nobody uses Windows8, Microsoft will still be around. What I meant was that Windows is dead, at least from a Windows 8 POV. This all could change by Windows 9, but Microsoft might lose a decent chunk of it’s userbase by then. If linux gaming takes off, I don’t really see how Microsoft recovers from a desktop standpoint. Linux is free vs paying several hundred for a retail pro edition of windows. Microsoft would have to adopt a cheaper payment model, perhaps dropping the different OS versions entirely, and moving towards a pay to update model. Something like OSX does.

          • Deanjo
          • 7 years ago

          [quote<]perhaps dropping the different OS versions entirely, and moving towards a pay to update model. Something like OSX does.[/quote<] You don't pay for updates in OS X, you pay for upgrades.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            semantics. fanboy.
            they’re service packs. the same OS since 99, with updates. that’s why they cost 20$.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            Wrong. Apples versions of service packs are the x.x.1, x.x.2 etc releases. 10.x releases carry new features, new capabilites as well as newer libraries,kernels, stacks, etc.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            I’m aware that you consider their updates upgrades. you can agree with their labeling, as you have chosen. clearly i am aware they don’t consider them service packs.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]clearly i am aware they don't consider them service packs.[/quote<] Clearly you don't have a clue on either subject as to what constitutes a service pack and what constitutes an upgrade. If you call the 10.x releases an update then by the very same criteria you have to consider 2k,xp,vista,7 and 8 "updates" to NT

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            xp to vista is a significant change. vista -> 7 not as much. xp service pack 2 had a GREAT many changes, more than some of the osx “upgrades”. I realize that was an unusually large SP, but my point remains.

            You can say i “clearly don’t have a clue”, but i disagree.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            XP SP2 was the only SP that brought any usabilty changes. That is the only exception to the rule. You have already established many times that you do not have much knowledge in OS X and keep doing so. There are more changes in every 10.x release then any of the ms service packs including XP SP2 which brought basically 3 new features one of which was pretty much a requirement in a hi speed net connected world (the firewall). On average every OS X release brings usually 500+ changes to the operating system in the form of features and usability changes (the exception being 10.0 to 10.1 and was a free upgrade).

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            Vista SP1 had usability changes.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            If you call reducing the number of UAC popups then I guess you are right.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            what? 500+? the new one has no where near that. snow leopard had no where near that. IN FACT they advertised that it had no new features, they just fixed crap that sucked badly and should have been fixed a long time ago. charging people for a semi decent graphics stack shouldn’t be something you cheer for. it should JUST BE THERE.

            you can say i know nothing about osx, you’d be wrong though. i talked about 10.8 instead of 10.7, OMG IM SUCH A MORON.

            i just don’t agree with you. you’re a masochist with stockholms syndrome (that might be hyperbole).

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<] (that might be hyperbole)[/quote<]But that's what you're good at...

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            • Corrado
            • 7 years ago

            There were plenty of features added in Snow Leopard. Its just that a lot of them were under the hood. 64bit kernel, included apps all rewritten for said 64bit kernel, Grand Central for much better and easier multi-threaded programming and performance, power management was completely rewritten, etc.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            [url<]http://cdn.arstechnica.net/20090828/snow-leopard-0-new-features.jpg[/url<] i realize that they made changes. they had to, as they released a new version. the semantics of it is what's annoying. somebody said updates, he had to correct them to align with apples lingo. If you want to claim new "under the hood" updates are features, you're going to butt heads with apples new lingo. honestly it matters not to myself. I don't use osx except a hackintosh i have done up, and it rarely gets touched. I don't disagree that osx is an excellent OS. [i<] possibly [/i<] the best. but the users can be annoying. edit: how am i downvoted for linking APPLES OWN INFORMATION???

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]the semantics of it is what's annoying. somebody said updates, he had to correct them to align with apples lingo[/quote<] Sorry but that is not only Apple lingo, that is pretty much universal. Updates are bug fixes, upgrades are new revisions of the software that bring new capabilities. When you receive new virus definitions, is that an update or an upgrade for example? When what do you run to get the latest patches for your windows system? Oh ya, it is MS Update, not MS Upgrade. What do you do when you change from MS Home premium to MS Professional. Oh ya it is called a MS Windows Anytime Upgrade. Updates address security flaws, bugs, compatibility issues, etc in current versions of software. [url<]http://financialsoft.about.com/od/softwaretitle1/f/upgradevupdate.htm[/url<] [url<]http://www.serverschool.com/operating-systems/update-vs-upgrade-what-is-the-difference/[/url<] [url<]http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-unix-software-whats-the-difference-between-update-upgrade/[/url<]

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            ok, then you’d agree that snow leopard was an update, that they charged people 29$ for?

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            10.7 carried over 250 new or changed features in Lion.

            • TakinYourPoints
            • 7 years ago

            You’re correct. 10.3 to 10.4 alone was a bigger upgrade than XP to Vista, and I can say the same about the 10.5 and 10.7 upgrades. I’ve been upgrading MS operating systems for over twice as long as I have with Macs, and if you have experience with either you know that the idea that OS X upgrades are the same as Windows service packs is completely retarded.

            Anyone who says that OS X upgrades amount to Windows service packs have zero technical knowledge and have no idea wtf they’re talking about.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            Bingo.

            • A_Pickle
            • 7 years ago

            Except, most things support Windows XP, which was released in 2001… whereas for Mac OS X, you need to have the second most recent version in order to enjoy the latest stuff.

            So, you can have your manufacturer-provided functionality… and I will enjoy the same level of functionality for the cost of my hardware + OS.

            • Corrado
            • 7 years ago

            Win2K is NT5.0, XP 32bit is 5.1, and XP 64bit Win2k3 is 5.2. Vista/2K8 is 6.0, 7/2K8R2 is 6.1 and Win8/2K12 is 6.2.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            exactly.

          • superjawes
          • 7 years ago

          Vista was a disaster, and definitely was “broken” in some ways on release, but Microsoft never lost a “decent chunk” of its user base. Windows 7 is still functional, and so long as desktop users want 9, nothing significant will change on the desktop.

          W8 is so different because the market is changing, however, and MS is trying to remain relevant across platforms, especially since, I suspect, laptops and your prebuilt desktop sales are going to decline in favor of tablets. Even if you’re looking at a $300 laptop, a tablet at the same price is more portable, and at that price, you’re barely going to be diving into Office apps anyway, so you don’t really need a dedicated keyboard if you have decent touch controls.

          So tablets are going to eat into MS’s market share more than OSX or Linux (desktop distros) ever will. And honestly, if you really want to get Windows off of desktops, you should probably be rooting for Windows 8. If MS can trade blows with the iPad, they are much more likely to double down on Windows 9. They would be a dominant force in the tablet market at that point, but it would leave room for others to eat up the (smaller) desktop sphere.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            I understand the tablet argument and agree, but that doesn’t excuse Metro on the desktop. They could have left in the start menu. If say 8 SP1 brings back the start menu/control panel, I will change my opinion of Microsoft, although I still would like to see linux succeed as a viable alternative.

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            I never said it excused it. I’m just saying that during this Windows cycle (anything between 7 and 9), the only market share Microsoft could and would lose is in the mobile sector. They will still dominate the desktop market. Windows 9, however, is a different story. If they go two releases in a row with anti-desktop stuff like that, then I think we will see massive emigration from Windows because 7 really will be dated.

            Linux could fill that gap, but I suspect it would be a specific distro built as a Windows replacement.

          • Malphas
          • 7 years ago

          “What I meant was that Windows is dead, at least from a Windows 8 POV.”
          Lol.

          ” If linux gaming takes off”
          Double lol.

          “Linux is free vs paying several hundred for a retail pro edition of windows.”
          Triple lol.

          You realise virtually no-one pays anywhere near several hundred dollars for Windows right? For the vast majority of people Windows comes pre-installed on their PC, where the OEM was charged a very modest sum for each copy. You should also realise Linux gaming is going nowhere and the average punter isn’t going to care even a fraction as much about Windows 8 as “enthusiasts” on tech news sites do.

            • Silus
            • 7 years ago

            Precisely! At last someone with common sense! 🙂

          • Silus
          • 7 years ago

          Do you even read what you write ? And does it make sense ? Because what you’re saying is that a non-released OS is the worst thing ever and that Microsoft will fail and Windows is dead….If that isn’t enough you imply that if Windows 8 is a failure, Microsoft won’t do anything about that (by either fixing what might be causing problems or by releasing a new OS fairly quick).

          None of that is true or will ever be true. I too am someone that doesn’t like Windows 8 at this point, but two things will happen:

          1) I’ll continue to be miffed by Windows 8 and won’t upgrade, but the majority will and thus Microsoft will not really do much to appease me. Still Windows will continue to be the gaming platform of choice in PC Gaming.

          2) Windows 8 won’t get much traction and Microsoft will fix the issues or simply release Windows 8.5 or even version 9, that will give the majority of people what they want. Still Windows will continue to be the gaming platform of choice in PC Gaming.

          Do you see the common portion on both of those scenarios ? Yeah, Windows 8 might succeed or not, but Windows will continue to be the gaming platform of choice for many years to come. And Microsoft will surely react to their Windows 8 sales with fixes or something new. Nothing will change and what Gabe Newell says should just be ignored just like 80% of what he says anyway…it’s basically just PR drivel.

          • Corrado
          • 7 years ago

          Linux isn’t free if you don’t know how to use it. People grew up using C:\ and D:\. Even for ‘experienced’ windows users, being thrown into /home/username and /usr/bin /lib /etc is daunting.

          • Corrado
          • 7 years ago

          Remember when Netbooks came out, and the nerds cheered because a lot had Linux of some flavor on it? And then they disappeared because people bought them and hated them and returned them? No? Cuz I do.

          [url<]http://linux.slashdot.org/story/08/10/05/123253/netbook-return-rates-much-higher-for-linux-than-windows[/url<]

        • Theolendras
        • 7 years ago

        Doom predictions on Microsoft account are ignoring much of the IT and software development industry works. Missed opportunity or deceived user I can see, but whole corporate and personal ecosystem resolve around MS software. Market share cannot change all that much all of a sudden and MS ecosystem is too big to be ignored by developpers. Seen how software development takes years, this is not gonna happen.

        • HisDivineOrder
        • 7 years ago

        That’s really the point, isn’t it? Windows and Office have propped up Microsoft through a lot. The reason Windows did this is because Windows… was it. Linux was never taken seriously and OS X (and MacOS before it) were exclusive to Apple. But Bob and Vista did less well than they should have.

        And that was without any competition, without anyone there to really offer people another option that could be taken seriously and used interchangeably. You could not game with Linux back in the day and have anywhere near the selection or service options that you could have with Windows.

        That’s always been true. That’s why this IS a story. I think that’s what you’re missing here. The guy who is most responsible for raising PC gaming from the ashes of forgotten history, a guy who built a service people lambasted at its beginning, is now the guy saying Windows 8 is horrible and could drag us down a road of closed systems that are the opposite of what Windows has always been about.

        He’s the guy who really put digital downloads and buying games digitally on the map. He’s the guy who set up the most complete PC gaming platform available, set the benchmark for how such a platform should work, and has done everything he can to convert that platform into a multi-device platform. He also created a way for indie developers to get their game out there cheaply and conveniently, playing directly into the same momentum that Apple gave indies with the App Store and the iOS devices. They disrupted the typical publisher-developer relationship and proved masses of gamers ARE in fact willing to play games not mass produced in the sweatshops.

        Now this guy is saying, “Hey, I’m bringing my platform that I did so well with… to the open OS that for too long has lacked any real and key support from anyone working on PC gaming. I’m going to make the cost of conversion very low for all the games that use my platform either for distribution or for more.”

        That’s a hell of a commitment to an OS that is free. This is the first time where Linux looks like it really has a shot of having more than token support for gaming. And if a bunch of developers begin to lament Windows 8 and follow suit, you could well see Linux ports of lots of games showing up. With more games, comes more interest and more interest brings more support. More support brings more drivers, more drivers brings more support.

        A pebble rolls down a hill called Steam and soon an avalanche is in motion. It all depends on if Windows 8 is the turkey it seems to be and if Microsoft stubbornly clings to the “Its our way or the highway” mentality that started this whole chain reaciton to start with. The problem is they refuse to listen to what the customers are saying they want. And that mindset is quickly robbing Windows of the things that the majority of PC users have always used this OS for… customization and backward compatibility with controls that can be configured to be like what they’re used to or having the option to try new features, too.

        Instead, they have thrown all that to the wind and are forcing their App Store onto every user, shoving it into their face repeatedly in the hopes of brainwashing people into using it. Alas, they are in fact taking the golden goose (ie., Windows) and they are repeatedly driving over it in a beat-up Volkswagon Bug pimped out in Apple logos with the word Apple crossed out. Ballmer’s hanging out the window, laughing.

        That Newell wants something different, I think that’s encouraging. That Croteam is joining in, that’s great. If only some publishers could be convinced to follow suit, the whole industry could make us a world where Microsoft had no more effect on PC gaming than Sony. That’d be great. They checked out years ago. It’s time we let them have Windows run with only its apps and let our games run on something much more open, customizable, and without all the forced attempts to make us comply with their corporate agenda that runs contrary to what we actually want.

        TLDR; MS is used to a world where they hold all the cards and Steam on Linux with gaming support could finally be the day when Linux is equal to Windows in all the ways that matter, even to the publishers. And Windows 8 is $40 for a reason. The enthusiasts, more or less, know it. The press know it. Gabe Newell knows it. Hell, even Paul Thurrott who makes his living off Windows knows it. And Microsoft knows it, too. (Hence, the $40 upgrade.)

        That’s why this is a big deal. This’ll be the first time Linux is showing up to the gaming industry with a proven and reliable gaming platform that’s already well established and trusted with tools to ease conversion and sales. That’s a lot of the work done to open up a new revenue source for publishers already porting to Windows…

          • l33t-g4m3r
          • 7 years ago

          Well written post. +1

        • sschaem
        • 7 years ago

        Metro is NOTHING like Windows ME or Bob or Vista, Metro failure will seriously hurt MS.
        But the issue is not just Window8+Metro, its all the surrounding problems that comes with it.

        And MS is not having record revenue, their are 15% DOWN from their Q2 2012.
        [url<]http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/TrendedHistory/default.aspx[/url<] Bing lost 450 million this quarter alone, MS had to write off 6+ billion from their failed Web effort to push off Google, Windows Mobile is so far from being called a success, etc.. Its hard to judge the true success, actually things dont look good for MS if you take into account the string of recent failures. Microsoft is not dead, just like AMd is not dead... Doesn't change the fast that both are going to lose massive market share in the coming years, and MS can thanks windows8 for kick starting their downward spiral.

        • jdaven
        • 7 years ago

        When you are a company that gets as big as Microsoft, it’s not any one thing that kills you off. It is a culmination of bad moves that begin to occur after complacency sets in for a monopoly. Microsoft was up to 98% OS share of all internet connected devices at its peak. Such dominance has a downside but it takes awhile and many wrong turns are needed.

        • nafhan
        • 7 years ago

        MS has been doing some impressive stuff at the enterprise level lately. They will continue to do well as company long after Windows is no longer relevant on the desktop and/or the desktop is no longer relevant.

        • just brew it!
        • 7 years ago

        Yes, they posted record revenue. But they also posted a net loss due to massive write-downs on a dodgy corporate acquisition (as reported here last week).

      • clone
      • 7 years ago

      I wouldn’t say MS is dead because they are abandoning PC gaming, I’d say it’s yet another sign that PC gaming is in serious decline, MS lost interest in it when they introduced Xbox.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        pc gaming was in decline, so ms introduced the xbox. that’s the order it went in. pc gaming picked up again after, but the pc was losing market share to consoles, and so ms built the xbox. the xbox WAS a response to the market.

          • clone
          • 7 years ago

          I’m not sure I agree with that, take a look at it from Microsofts point of view, they had a MASSIVE existing user base…. absolutely MASSIVE, and the only reason sales had dropped was because 2001 wasn’t long after Y2K when so many were upgrading to avoid the planes falling out of the sky.

          with this in mind MS knew as well as anyone that PC sales were rise again to more sustainable levels, by going with Xbox MS took a hedge more than anything.

          that hedge has since undercut PC gaming which MS has shown only disdain for as time has gone on but at the time MS knew as well as anyone watching the market should have that PC sales were going to rise and PC gaming would grow with it.

        • BobbinThreadbare
        • 7 years ago

        Except that’s wrong: [url<]http://www.t3.com/news/pc-gaming-is-fastest-growing-platform-says-ea-ceo[/url<]

          • clone
          • 7 years ago

          you may want to take a closer look at that comment, to be honest I look forward to hearing more positive PC gaming news but this report alone is weak and more to do with EA’s stock price and assuaging investor concerns.

          it’s all speculation with EA claiming that PC is primed to surge, not that it has, EA is also dangling a carrot by throwing out a previously untapped revenue stream.

          “Although recent figures have suggested the market was in rapid decline, Riccitiello believes the resurgent industry can still prove a profitable outlet for EA as the publisher looks to quell a 52-week trading low.”

        • Malphas
        • 7 years ago

        Uh, PC gaming has been growing faster than console gaming for years now. The whole “PC gaming is dead” mantra has itself been dead and buried for half a decade now since digital distribution and more capable IGP graphics ushered in a PC gaming renaissance of sorts.

          • khands
          • 7 years ago

          To be fair though, MS has done shit for PC gaming save releasing new DirectX/3D versions for most of the past decade. That PC gaming is doing well now is in spite of MS, not because of them.

          • clone
          • 7 years ago

          do you believe that?

          I’m not trying to crash the party or anything but do you really believe that the improvements in IGP have translated to a larger user base & increased game sales?

          personally I thought they were halfway to the minimum needed.

          I know I wish it was true but then I take only a moment to notice that PC game development hasn’t reached beyond anything that won’t eventually port to console.

          with console dictating direction and development I just find it hard to believe that PC gaming has entered a “renaissance” especially with so many developers dead and buried and so very many homogenous titles coming out.

          I’ve always felt that once consoles grab the MMORPG crowd and offer up decent web surfing that PC would die quicker than it would take to say “I can’t justify building a PC given consoles do it all for half.”

            • Malphas
            • 7 years ago

            I really do. It’s not just the actual figures that support me (PC game sales are growing faster than console sales) but anecdotally too. I know people playing games on PC that aren’t your traditional gamer (i.e. they’re women or grown adults rather than youngish men), and they’d doing it on their cheap IGP equipped laptops. They’re mainly playing games like Tropico, Torchlight, etc. rather than *whatever recent generic space marine/army guy shooter* that have broader appeal.

            Obviously I don’t think we’ll be seeing a return the late 90’s heyday of PC exclusive titles or anything, but I think generally mainstream gaming is going to shift towards PCs (by which I mean average laptops moreso than gaming rigs), tablets and smartphones and away from dedicated consoles (which will still be around for said teenage/twenty-something male demographic, of course).

            On a side note, MMORPGs are a dying trend too, the market got oversaturated with everyone wanting to cash in after WoW and it got to the point where most of them were failing financially. It’ll still exist as a genre and have a bunch of enthusiastic players, but it was to some extent a passing fad in the broader sense – a lot of the less committed players got bored and moved on. And really “surfing the web” on your TV in 2012? The whole idea of web on TV is a staunchly 90’s/early 2000’s proposal. It was tried, it didn’t take and now everyone has a laptop and/or a tablet and/or a smartphone, all of which are more suitable for web browsing (possible exception of the smartphone) than a TV is. It’s not going to happen in that sense, although Internet-enabled TV’s are definitely going to be big news, but it’ll be for connecting to streaming services and displaying feeds rather than actual clicking-and-typing style web browsing.

            • clone
            • 7 years ago

            I don’t disagree with what you’ve said btw just looking at if from another angle.

            1995 to 2010 for the sake of round numbers we built computers, desktop computers to run the latest most demanding games and games were pushing the envelope….. when I say PC gaming is dying I’m saying that business cycle is dying… to be honest I consider it on life support with the last killer app being 2007’s Crysis.

            desktop PC is destined to become console because consoles are going to fully incorporate all of PC’s features, this has been my position all along, I’ve never thought company’s would stop creating games…. far from it just figured they’d move on from the old practices and they have.

            when Tech Report does a review of the brand new GTX 680 or HD 7970…. those are true PC gaming cards and they are getting released just like their older brothers GTX 580 and HD 6970 into a market where they don’t matter, triple X HD resolutions are required just to make them hesitate… their was a time when the latest was so far behind software that 800 X 600 was crushing video, each gen was bringing 50% more performance and consumers weren’t sure it was enough but definitely knew they wanted more.

            those days are over, the innovation has slowed to a trickle, DX 1 to DX 5 evolved in less than 2 years, DX 5 to DX 8 evolved in a little over 3, DX 8 to DX 10 took 6 years and it took another 6 to reach DX 11.1…. PC gaming to me is Hardware chasing software and consumers just trying to keep up, now we talk about laptop gaming and integrated gfx in the same context as PC gaming…… ugh and amazing at the same time.

            TR’s econobox build with more focus on gfx at the same price point can run games at 1920 X 1080…. back in 2000 you’d be lucky if the econobox was 3d capable beyond the acronym.

            • Malphas
            • 7 years ago

            Yeah, what you’re saying about high end gaming is right, but it’s your conclusion that things will shift towards consoles instead is where you’re making a mistake in my opinion. Things trended towards consoles because they were simpler and cheaper than high-end gaming rigs, and now things are trending towards PCs because they’re cheaper and simpler than a dedicated console, since everyone has a PC these days.

            The distinction here is however is that when I say PC, I’m not talking about going back to desktop gaming rigs I’m talking about your average cheap laptop that everyone owns these days, including traditionally non-gamer people like your grandparents, girlfriend, etc. You couple the fact that budget laptops are now reasonably capable GPU-wise with digital distribution services like Steam and you’ve pretty much eliminated almost all the disadvantages PC gaming traditionally had versus consoles (expensive hardware, necessary frequent upgrades, installation procedure, downloading and applying patches, etc.)

            I mean, take your point about the econobox being capable of running games decently. Yes, that might be disheartening for enthusiasts thinking back towards the 90’s, but it’s actually a huge advantage for PC gaming in general because it means the installation base of gaming-capable PCs is larger than ever.

            If consoles were going to incorporate all PC features, then they would have done it already by now, but the form factor is all wrong and it’s incompatible with how people use their PCs and televisions. Like I said, they already tried to pair PC features like web browsing with televisions a decade ago, when the PC install base was smaller and PCs were more expensive, but it didn’t take. People just don’t want to do things like use Facebook or Twitter or instant messaging on their televisions; what they want are small, portable devices (laptops, tablets) they can have sitting on their lap while the television is playing American Idol or whatever in the background, and these are going the more natural devices for gaming in the future for the majority of people.

            • clone
            • 7 years ago

            I’m not making any mistakes.

            laptops aren’t in competition with home theaters, ppl like to own a few devices…. not many but portable vs specialized still has a place in the home, we aren’t quite there yet where I use my portable device (laptop, notebook, tablet) all day then get home and it becomes my home entertainment system to be used all night.

            desktop PC has no future but home theater still has some life left in it.

            the reason consoles haven’t done it already is because of cost and their upgrade cycle….. consoles sell when sold for sub $500, they get ignored when they sell for more than $500 and Sony absolutely got slaughtered by asking $750 regardless of merit or lack thereof because the tech was too spendy at the time, not because they got greedy.

            today fully capable can be had for sub $500.

            you’ve mentioned the failure of WEB TV and browsing in the living room but you haven’t addressed why those failures happened……unrefined tech, requisite sacrifices required to enable, cost and a culture stigma.

            the tech is refined, no sacrifices are required and the new generation of consumers is irritated that someone hasn’t done it yet……. it’s only logical that consumers will be taking the ability to multitask into the living room as it becomes the natural state of our lives.

            p.s. it’s also logical to assume that a variant of Cell Phones will replace laptops, tablets and notebooks for most computing use while the home theater will likely still be around.

            • Malphas
            • 7 years ago

            I can only disagree with your assessments completely.

            “laptops aren’t in competition with home theaters”

            Agreed, but consoles are not home theatres, my point is that a television is suited as a passive entertainment device and devices like laptops, tablets and smartphones are better suited as interactive devices. You may switch over from using portable devices during the day to your home theatre system at night but increasingly people are on their laptops all day, often when the television is on at the same time.

            “the reason consoles haven’t done it already is because of cost and their upgrade cycle.”

            Absolute rubbish, it would cost essentially nothing to incorporate PC features like web browsing to current generation consoles. Even the Dreamcast had web browsers, it’s just no-one wanted to use them over a PC.

            “you’ve mentioned the failure of WEB TV and browsing in the living room but you haven’t addressed why those failures happened”

            Actually I did mention the primary reason, the form factor is all wrong. If you disagree with that reason in favour of other ones then fair enough, but that was why I was saying web browsing on televisions failed, and why it isn’t coming back. As I said people don’t want to use Facebook on a 50-inch display from several feet away – they want something small, portable and in their lap.

            Televisions will incorporate Internet features (Internet is different from Web) via specialised Apps that simplify the interaction required, allowing you to access streaming sites, YouTube videos, etc. from your television. That’s a compliment to full web-browsing, not a replacement.

            • clone
            • 7 years ago

            completely?…. then you agreed with my first comment and agreed with my other reasons.. lol.

            television viewers when bored & flipping channels will put it in a window & surf, FB, check the news, grab music, grab a movie, shopping, or visit TR while the show runs…..you can try to skew it any way you want the HTPC market disagree’s with your position regarding useage & trends in the living room and I personally know ppl who are surfing on 70in LCD’s in the living room.

            Dreamcasts (1998) web failings were due too all of the reasons I mentioned previously…..compromises that no longer apply, Xbox’s claim to fame was HD video at 720p… meh, Xbox 360 and PS3….. no burners, general lack of HDD space, weak CPU’s, lack of expansion ports, general lack of ram….. this on $500 – $750 consoles with MS & Sony losing money on each unit, next gen may be able to fill the niche but that ability hasn’t been mainstream acceptable in previous consoles.

            • Malphas
            • 7 years ago

            “completely?…. then you agreed with my first comment and agreed with my other reasons.. lol.”

            I said I disagree with your assessments, not your statement of facts. Grow up.

            “the HTPC market disagree’s with your position regarding useage & trends in the living room and I personally know ppl who are surfing on 70in LCD’s in the living room.”

            How? Because you personally know a few people using the web on their televisions? Statistics trump anecdotes and overwhelmingly people are not using their home theatres for that kind of usage scenario. You’ve become a lot less coherent and logical since the beginning of this thread, and now you’re clutching at straws.

            • A_Pickle
            • 7 years ago

            Seriously. I occasionally surf the internet on my 46″ 1080P Sony, but that doesn’t mean I want to. It’s because I’m lazy, and don’t want to move to one of my nicer, better machines for web surfing to look up this one thing. Beyond that, I entirely use my HTPC to connect to online streaming services.

            • TakinYourPoints
            • 7 years ago

            He’s exactly right, PC gaming has been doing very well in spite of MS, not because of them.

            Look what MS has done regarding their own PC studios, they either shut them down (FASA, Ensemble, ACES), or turned them to making XBox exclusive games.

      • A_Pickle
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Also, I'm keeping my eye out on Mageia. They may be the real ticket to a usable linux desktop experience.[/quote<] Looks exactly like the other ten million distributions out there. Why and how is this one different?

    • codedivine
    • 7 years ago

    Well, as a Linux user, I appreciate the sentiment but I think partly Valve is just afraid of the Windows Store competing with Steam. On a sidenote, I wonder if more game companies will support Linux. For example, I would be interested in seeing id offer current games on Linux through Steam. They already have OpenGL based engines.

    [quote<]I've never been too impressed with Linux's driver support[/quote<] Well, the hardware vendors decide to write drivers for platforms which they think are popular. It does cost money to pay people to write drivers. If desktop Linux gains in popularity, more hardware support may also come along.

      • l33t-g4m3r
      • 7 years ago

      Valve is also trying to compete with other linux game distributors, like Desura.

      id already has linux versions, not just OpenGL based engines. I’m assuming id games will be some of the first to be available.

      Edit: -1 for truth and trolls! I care not, it only makes me post [i<]more[/i<]. Bring on the brainwashed masses! I shall free your mind.

      • Theolendras
      • 7 years ago

      I agree with the Windows store/Xbox live integration competition. I hope Valve has what it takes to break the chicken and egg situation on drivers and game developpement. I for one be interested.

        • sschaem
        • 7 years ago

        Take heart…. Valve is not alone in this ‘experiment’

        Its actually exciting to think what would happen… nVidia spending more time on their Linux driver then windows driver ? Not a folly 🙂

      • MadManOriginal
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Valve is just afraid of the Windows Store competing with Steam[/quote<] Boom, real answer right there. If Newell and Valve really thought touch will be the dominant interface for the next ten years they'd already be into mobile game development, but it was only in the last few months they released a Steam mobile app that actually had some utility beyond being a store and that utility only amounted to initiating remote downloads. Linux is just a different desktop-style OS as far as consumers go so something doesn't jive until you account for distribution competition with MS.

        • BobbinThreadbare
        • 7 years ago

        He didn’t say touch was going to be the dominant interface it said it would be stable for about 10 years.

          • MadManOriginal
          • 7 years ago

          Maybe that’s what he meant but I read the following: [quote<]If you look at the mouse and keyboard, it was stable for about 25 years. I think touch will be stable for about 10 years. I think post-touch, and we'll be stable for a really long time — for another 25 years. I think touch will be this intermediate[/quote<] as saying there's a progression. KB+mouse -> touch -> 'post touch' (natural interfaces most likely such as voice). I'm not sure what else he could mean by 'stable' than 'dominant' since he says the same thing for KB+mouse. It probably also requires the caveat of 'in total numbers but not on all platforms.' It's hard to see touch overtaking KB+mouse on the desktop or even traditional laptop (which I would say includes tablets+keyboard...they are just touch-enabled laptops at that point) but I am certain that there will be more touch-enabled portable devices worldwide than desktop/non-portable PCs in the next ten years.

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]For example, I would be interested in seeing id offer current games on Linux through Steam. They already have OpenGL based engines.[/quote<] I wouldn't hold my breath on iD's newer stuff after TTimo and iD decided to part ways.

      • Narishma
      • 7 years ago

      All previous id Software games (up to and not including Rage) are already available natively on Linux. Putting them on the Linux version of Steam would be easy.

        • Deanjo
        • 7 years ago

        Ya it would be but some massaging of the installers and recompiling of the binaries (and getting rid of items like the cd key checks) would probably be required. Not hard stuff, just some minor tweaking (old games for example still use the OSS sound system for example and you would probably want to make sure that it at the very least was updated to use alsa and possibly pulse). It would be a few days work at most.

          • BobbinThreadbare
          • 7 years ago

          Doom 3 and Quake 4 are already on steam, I don’t think they need to change how cd key checks work at all.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            A CD check on a digitally delivered system is useless, especially since the source is readily available including the CD key check which is easily disabled with one line of code.

      • bjm
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Well, as a Linux user, I appreciate the sentiment but I think partly Valve is just afraid of the Windows Store competing with Steam.[/quote<] You hit the nail on the head. Bottom line is that Windows 8 is bad for Steam; there is nothing else to it. Having said that, if Valve is willing to take the developments reins of the gaming APIs and create a stable platform on top of it, they will have a great chance at developing something worthy. And this means either forking any existing APIs, developing their own, or simply hiring those who already write them to control it. There is a reason they chose Ubuntu and one of the biggest reasons is that Ubuntu isn't scared to pissing off the nerd-raging Linux base if it means delivering a polished product. It's a promising start and it's definitely going to be interesting to see how far they take this. The question, for me, is how they're going to solve backwards binary compatibility issues. Unlike much open source software, games are primarily proprietary -- but even more importantly, they are not continuously maintained. With few exceptions (like Starcraft), most games are released and then patched for a while, and then eventually EOL'd. Is Valve going to support those games? Or will their be static frameworks ala .NET Framework 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, etc. and Android's API levels 1-15 (eek!)? Interesting indeed...

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]I've never been too impressed with Linux's driver support Well, the hardware vendors decide to write drivers for platforms which they think are popular. It does cost money to pay people to write drivers. If desktop Linux gains in popularity, more hardware support may also come along. [/quote<] I had to snicker at the articles "driver" rant especially when there are thousands of devices that each version drops support for meanwhile pretty much every piece of hardware that has had linux driver support still does have linux driver support. More is supported out of the box then any version of windows.

        • bjm
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]More is supported out of the box then any version of windows.[/quote<] Marking this against Windows is like trying it mark it against Linux that you can't buy software off the store the shelves when that platform's preferred method is through repositories. When it comes to hardware support, Windows has the benefit of a stable ABI and not requiring to be bundled with a massive flood of drivers. With Linux, since both the ABI *and* API are both unstable, almost every single driver has to be recompiled for each and every kernel version. Sure, this works for open sourced mainline drivers, but its not so good for hardware developers who don't release mainline (for whatever reason they may have). Android is proof of this. Look at CyanogenMod. Unless the original manufacturer released drivers for Ice Cream Sandwich, or unless a CM dev writes their own driver, that specific device would not get an update. If Linux had a stable ABI and API for their hardware drivers, CyanogenMod could simply take the drivers, load them in, and focus on polishing the userland.

          • Deanjo
          • 7 years ago

          I can say the same thing about windows. My place is full of items that no longer work in windows. The abi and apis are stable enough that I have yet to have a piece of hardware stop working but I have a ton of hardware that is no longer supported in Windows because of a new release of windows such as scanners, printers, raid cards, tv cards, soundcards, webcams, joysticks, etc.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            Like what exactly? Unless those are XP-era hardware devices, they should be able to use the same drivers today. The last major kernel change to Windows was Vista, so the drivers will work the same from Vista to Windows 8. And for XP-era devices, many of them included Vista drivers which you can still use. If they didn’t, then that is a really old device. I mean — sure, your Sound Blaster Live! won’t work nicely with Vista and newer unless you webcrawl for drivers, but if your newer devices worked under Vista, then it would work under Windows 8 with the same driver.

            Linux has it’s advantages, but gaining the newest hardware support isn’t one of them. When it comes to maintaining existing compatibility once it has finally been gained, provided that driver is open sourced and mainline, Linux is great! But the reality of the situation is that not all drivers are open sourced nor mainline.

            [quote<]The abi and apis are stable enough that I have yet to have a piece of hardware stop working[/quote<] You have to understand, what you are seeing in Linux distros is not due to having a "stable enough" ABI or API. The drivers you are using aren't the same one you were using on the last version of Linux. Those drivers are continuing to work because they were updated to the new API and re-compiled with the updated libraries along with the new kernel headers (i.e., not using the same ABI). This is why the drivers HAVE to be open sourced and mainline to retain that compatibility. And that is why Android has the issues it has with updating. Samsung and the other Android phone manufacturers don't always develop the drivers those phones use. And once the phone is built, the hardware drivers aren't going to updated as they are binary blobs loaded into the kernel -- not open sourced nor mainline. (i.e., this is why most unofficial CM9 builds lack camera functionality. Most camera drivers are closed source). Thus, when Ice Cream Sandwich came out (with a new kernel), Gingerbread drivers could not be used.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            I just want to reply to myself to say: I’m not at all saying that the Windows model is inherently better than Linux or anything like that. If, tomorrow, every hardware developer released an open source driver in the mainline, then that would be beyond awesome.But for whatever reason, that isn’t the case. Patents, trade secrets, contracts, difficulty to work open source devs, or whatever other reason hardware companies may find, they have made their point — they simply don’t want to release some things open source.

            And as I mentioned in my other post in this thread, this same compatibility question can be applied to proprietary games since many of them are eventually EOL’d but us gamers will still want to play them even after that point. Multi-booting every single Ubuntu LTS would be worse than dual-booting XP/7. An EOL’d proprietary game is essentially a binary blob in it’s own right, subject to all the issues that comes with running on a fast moving open source-dependant platform. As both a Linux user and a gamer (but not yet a Linux gamer, because gaming on Linux is terrible compared to Windows thus far), I would love to see it succeed as a gaming platform. But there are real problems in the way, and I wish Valve the best of luck in solving them.

            Who knows, maybe Valve can partner up with Xamarin and get the Mono-base to be a portable gaming platform for both Linux, Windows, iOS, Android and Mac? Boy, would that be awesome.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]This is why the drivers HAVE to be open sourced and mainline to retain that compatibility.[/quote<] BS they do not have to be opensource or mainline to retain that compatibility. Nvidia has been doing closed source drivers for linux for a better part of a decade and they are still the best featured, best performing drivers for linux. Even with a "stable" or more accurately "stagnant" api/abi you still see hundreds of driver updates to windows to address items such as incompatibilities. The windows world is no better. If it was you shouldn't need more then 2 or 3 driver releases to address all issues but that is far from the case now isn't it?

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]BS they do not have to be opensource or mainline to retain that compatibility.[/quote<] Ah, Deanjo… so quick to throw the "BS term out. You know, from your last few posts, I need to ask: do you even know what a stable ABI/API means or what it is? Please, tell me the last time Nvidia or AMD released an urgent update out to Windows based on changes to the WDF 1.5-1.9. The last big change for drivers was from XP to Vista, when they went from WDM to WDDM and from WDF 1.1 to 1.5. Since then, they have retained their backwards compatibility for their drivers. Edit: And I will admit, even Windows isn't 100% all the time. Some drivers will still need updates between Windows 7 and 8 for things to work, based on the obscurity of the driver. But still, it's been said [url=http://lwn.net/Articles/483887/<]before[/url<], "Breaking the API every major release (separated by multiple years) is one thing. Breaking it every other week is completely different." I don't even know why you are even trying to argue this with me. Linux kernel developers themselves have stated that they don't give a damn about a stable API or ABI. In fact, they love the fact that it isn't. And you know, they have a point -- because if a driver is mainline and open source, it's hell of a lot better than a closed source one for things important to Linux (which, so far, has not been games). And that goes back to my point, Linux is open-source dependent. Have you ever tried running the latest kernel with the latest nVidia driver? Or, a new Linux driver on an older Linux kernel? More often than not, you'll need to update something in the kernel headers or in the driver installer itself. Nvidia themselves say [url=http://es.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/295.59/README/faq.html<]this[/url<]: "If the versions listed mismatch (e.g., kernel-2.6.15-7 vs. kernel-devel-2.6.15-10), then you will need to update the kernel-devel package to match the installed kernel. If you have multiple kernels installed, you need to install the kernel-devel package that corresponds to your running kernel (or make sure your installed source package matches the running kernel). You can do this by looking at the output of uname -r and matching versions." That's straight from nVidia. Why does the kernel version need to match? Because the ABI isn't stable. The API itself may even be stable between kernel versions, but the ABI won't. When the API changes, expect a delay from the nVidia driver release. Does Windows need this? No. Does FreeBSD (which has a stable ABI and API between kernel versions)? No. Does Linux? Yes. Do you even know why the distributions use the stable kernel series? Kernel versions are declared stable only when and if a distribution or a person is willing to maintain the backports for security. And the reason they do this is to keep the API stable between the kernel updates. Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Mageia, etc. do NOT update to major kernel versions when updating on their releases precisely because of incompatibilities and changes between the kernel versions. That's the reason the stable kernel series even exists! But even in this state, the kernel modules often still need to be recompiled. Even GregKH, one of the main kernel devs, states the kernel isn't even remotely stable in his [url=http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt<]post[/url<]. Here's another one of his [url=http://www.kroah.com/log/2005/11/03/<]posts[/url<]. Have you ever ran the Gentoo or any other bleeding edge distribution and tried to get the latest kernel working? Or ran SUSE's Factory or Tumbleweed distribution which they themselves [url=http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed<]state[/url<] that "The problems with proprietary Graphics drivers are similar and there is no guarantee they will work tomorrow, even if they do today"? Or the reverse, using a new graphics driver on an older kernel release? There's a reason it doesn't work. [quote<]Nvidia has been doing closed source drivers for linux for a better part of a decade and they are still the best featured, best performing drivers for linux.[/quote<] It's funny how you use Nvidia as your prime example. Nvidia is the exception in that they have a dedicated team for updating their drivers and they need to have a dedicated team to keep up with the changes. Do you think all companies will retain a team for that? Fact is, they don't. That's why we have to wait for some other driver maintainer to write one. And even AMD, which releases the specifications for their hardware, aims to be within 30% of their catalyst driver. 30%! When benchmarks are 10% faster than the other in the Windows world, everyone cries "They got whooped!" to the slower device. [quote<]Even with a "stable" or more accurately "stagnant" api/abi you still see hundreds of driver updates to windows to address items such as incompatibilities. The windows world is no better. If it was you shouldn't need more then 2 or 3 driver releases to address all issues but that is far from the case now isn't it?[/quote<] Uhm, what? Again, when did release AMD or Nvidia release a driver update due to a kernel API or ABI since Vista? The incompatibilities you are likely referring to are application level updates to correct issues with games or some other application and not at the kernel. The only BS here is your assertion that the Linux kernel API or ABI is at all stable. But hey, I'm getting downvoted and you're getting upvoted -- so you have to be right, right? I mean, it's not like I'm getting downvoted because some raging Linux gamers refuse to recognize any faults in Linux as a gaming platform, right? After all, Linux is awesome and is better in every way than Windows! Switch to Linux instead of Windows 8 or instead of staying on Windows 7! Edit: Formatting.. and grammar.. and more grammar! Fourth and last edit, I swear!

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Or ran SUSE's Factory or Tumbleweed distribution which they themselves state that "The problems with proprietary Graphics drivers are similar and there is no guarantee they will work tomorrow, even if they do today"? Or the reverse, using a new graphics driver on an older kernel release? There's a reason it doesn't work.[/quote<] I've been running openSUSE/SuSE factory and Tumbleweed for years (even run my own build server that mirrors the latest factory projects with machine specific builds) and I can count on one hand the number of times it has broke the closed source drivers.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            Be honest now, because the the Nvidia driver depends on the OpenSUSE’s kernel-devel package, so it will break *every* single time you update your kernel. You will *have* to update to the re-compiled package that either someone at OpenSUSE is maintaining or that you are performing yourself. If you’re simply updating and pulling down newly recompiled packaged with it, you won’t be able to tell the difference — and that would be a testament to OpenSUSE’s packaging team, not a stable API/ABI.

            What is *really* is happening that you are breaking your Nvidia drivers each time the kernel is updated but then fixing it with a new package update or a re-compile. So no, you can’t count on one hand the number of times the closed source drivers broke unless you updated your kernel less than five times.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            I am very honest and I never use the nvidia rpms.

            [url<]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Kernel_Module_Support[/url<] BTW, ABI changes to the linux kernel that has broken nvidia's binary blob has happened exactly 4 times, since 2003 with the most recent being 2.6.17 which removed symbols that were thought to being used by no one. Later they found virtualbox and the nvidia drivers were both using them. Both were updated to not need the symbols.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            LOL. Okay Deanjo, I think at this point you’ve proven you don’t have the slightest clue as to what a stable API or ABI is.

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            I think you’re being little obtuse. First, Windows and FreeBSD don’t update their kernels nearly at the level that Linux does. They aren’t even in the same ballpark. If this did occur in Windows land you would see much the same thing regarding third party drivers. You already see it on every major Windows release. Every major release requires a brand new driver and they aren’t cross compatible either. Win 95 drivers don’t work in Windows 7 and Windows 7 drivers don’t work in Windows 95… period. There are fundamental changes kernel to kernel. If you want to get into the topic of API’s feel free on giving instructions on installing DX11 on Windows XP. Is it possible? Yes. But it’s far more complicated than pulling down dev headers and recompiling a driver.

            Second I don’t know how you put FreeBSD in there as an example. That’s probably the worse example of stability when it comes to installing the latest of packages. Don’t believe me? Install Gnome 3.0 on FreeBSD. Let me know how that goes. “Broken API’s” will be the least of your worries. Let’s hope you still have keyboard output when GDM get’s installed…if u get that far.

            When you say ….
            [quote<] What is *really* is happening that you are breaking your Nvidia drivers each time the kernel ...[/quote<] Try replacing the Windows 7 kernel (or whatever you are running) with one from Windows 98 ... then restart... chances are you won't be back to respond...this is the point. Fundamental changes to the kernel causes fundamental changes to the drivers which it talks to. The dev packages allow the binary to compile against a fragment of the source tree so that it creates the kernel module properly. Mixing and matching dev packages with different kernel versions is just as dumb as my aforementioned Windows example. MS doesn't make huge sweeping changes to their kernel weekly or even monthly beyond SP1 or SP2 and sometimes not even then. I think you need to be aware of the reality when it comes to Windows.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]I think you're being little obtuse. First, Windows and FreeBSD don't update their kernels nearly at the level that Linux does. They aren't even in the same ballpark. If this did occur in Windows land you would see much the same thing regarding third party drivers. You already see it on every major Windows release. Every major release requires a brand new driver and they aren't cross compatible either. Win 95 drivers don't work in Windows 7 and Windows 7 drivers don't work in Windows 95... period. There are fundamental changes kernel to kernel. If you want to get into the topic of API's feel free on giving instructions on installing DX11 on Windows XP. Is it possible? Yes. But it's far more complicated than pulling down dev headers and recompiling a driver. [/quote<] No, every major release did not require a brand new driver. Since Windows 98 (Windows 95 used the VxDs), Microsoft's WDM drivers were compatible with drivers all the way to Windows XP SP3 in 2008. So, you could write drivers for Microsoft's operating systems spanning a decade and longer. This finally changed in with Vista and WDDM, but so far WDDM has retained compatibility all the way until Windows 8. Two major versions of their display driver model is pretty damn good. [quote<]Second I don't know how you put FreeBSD in there as an example. That's probably the worse example of stability when it comes to installing the latest of packages. Don't believe me? Install Gnome 3.0 on FreeBSD. Let me know how that goes. "Broken API's" will be the least of your worries. Let's hope you still have keyboard output when GDM get's installed...if u get that far.[/quote<] To be clear, I was specifically referencing loadable kernel modules, of which FreeBSD's kernel API and ABI are relatively stable. Compatibility with Gnome 3.0 is an entirely different topic that encompasses even userland APIs, which FreeBSD is definitely slow at updating. You won't find an argument from me when it comes userland compatibility with FreeBSD. [quote<]Try replacing the Windows 7 kernel (or whatever you are running) with one from Windows 98 ... then restart... chances are you won't be back to respond...this is the point. Fundamental changes to the kernel causes fundamental changes to the drivers which it talks to. The dev packages allow the binary to compile against a fragment of the source tree so that it creates the kernel module properly. Mixing and matching dev packages with different kernel versions is just as dumb as my aforementioned Windows example. MS doesn't make huge sweeping changes to their kernel weekly or even monthly beyond SP1 or SP2 and sometimes not even then. I think you need to be aware of the reality when it comes to Windows.[/quote<] It doesn't have to be that way. The same binary driver would work provided that they have a stable ABI between those kernel revisions. If you had a driver from Windows 98, it would work with 98SE, ME, XP, XP SP1, XP SP2, and XP SP3. Vista changed it's driver model, so yes -- it won't work with Vista. But since Vista, WDDM 1.0 is compatible with Vista, 7, and Windows 8. You're distorting the facts by using the example that since Windows 95 drivers don't work with Windows 7, it's just as bad as Linux when it comes to driver compatibility. That is hardly the case. You so much as sneeze during the recompile of a Linux kernel, your prior kernel modules will break.

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]No, every major release did not require a brand new driver. Since Windows 98 (Windows 95 used the VxDs), Microsoft's WDM drivers were compatible with drivers all the way to Windows XP SP3 in 2008. So, you could write drivers for Microsoft's operating systems spanning a decade and longer. This finally changed in with Vista and WDDM, but so far WDDM has retained compatibility all the way until Windows 8. Two major versions of their display driver model is pretty damn good[/quote<] Can you install Windows 98 drivers in Windows XP? No you can't . You can force it of course, but YMMV in terms of what will happen. You telling me how awesome it is, doesn't disprove what I've been saying. [quote<]To be clear, I was specifically referencing loadable kernel modules, of which FreeBSD's kernel API and ABI are relatively stable.[/quote<] The conversation can stick to kernel space and the modules loaded there but even then it's a horrible example. If you have a Nvidia card go ahead and update your kernel. Tell me if it's still working afterwards. It's a crap shoot at best. [quote<]It doesn't have to be that way. The same binary driver would work provided that they have a stable ABI between those kernel revisions. [/quote<] No it won't 95/98 drivers often loaded in user space. 2000, XP, Vista, 7 and 8 don't. They load in kernel space. What do you think kernel mode setting is? It's a rewrite. Period. [quote<]You're distorting the facts by using the example that since Windows 95 drivers don't work with Windows 7, it's just as bad as Linux when it comes to driver compatibility. That is hardly the case. [/quote<] I didn't say it was just as bad. I said your example is flawed because your hypothesis is that drivers need to be recompiled only for Linux when the kernel changes and that this phenomenon never occurs with Windows or FreeBSD. This obviously is incorrect.

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Can you install Windows 98 drivers in Windows XP? No you can't . You can force it of course, but YMMV in terms of what will happen.[/quote<] Are you just assuming that? Have you actually tried it before? Yes, I can install the Windows 98 drivers in XP and have indeed done so. The original Sound Blaster Live! released for Windows 98 work with the exact same drivers in Windows XP SP3. But we don't even have to go back as far as Windows 98. If the device didn't have an equivalent driver from 98/98SE, then most definitely the device had a driver that worked in Win2K, Win2K SP1-4, and with Windows XP, and XP SP1-3. Using your logic, the kernel never underwent any change at all during that time frame since the driver continued to work. [quote<]You telling me how awesome it is, doesn't disprove what I've can been saying.[/quote<] Likewise, you telling me that Windows 98 drivers won't work with XP SP3 simply because you say so doesn't make it to true. But let's just assume your right -- drivers aren't compatible between Windows 98 and XP SP3. The fact that Windows 2000 drivers and Windows XP SP 3 are still entirely compatible, despite the enormous chanegs between those two kernels, still proves you wrong. The fact of the matter is: the Windows kernel and it's design are far are more resilient to breaking existing drivers than Linux is, which breaks drivers even with a minor revision. [quote<]No it won't 95/98 drivers often loaded in user space. 2000, XP, Vista, 7 and 8 don't. They load in kernel space. What do you think kernel mode setting is? It's a rewrite. Period. [/quote<] Windows 98 introduced the WDM standard which many of the newer devices of the time had utilized. This same WDM design was carried into Windows XP and that is how the drivers were able to retain compatibility. How else do you think ndiswrapper was able to so easily utilize Windows network drivers in Linux? Those windows drivers were never recompiled, only ndiswrapper had to be recompiled to match the kernel. It's because of the stable ABI and API. How else do you think that ReactOS can even target drive compatibility at all? [quote<]I didn't say it was just as bad. I said your example is flawed because your hypothesis is that drivers need to be recompiled only for Linux when the kernel changes and that this phenomenon never occurs with Windows or FreeBSD. This obviously is incorrect.[/quote<] The fact that Windows 98SE drivers have retained compatibility all the way up XP SP3 is proof that if held to a consistent standard, drivers can be compatible between different and updated kernels. But again, even discounting Windows 98SE, 2000 and XP drivers are still compatible. And further, Windows XP retained compatibility with its own drivers despite the numerous kernel updates that it had gone through. You are simply refusing to believe it so that your point won't be proven wrong. Your assumption that simply if a kernel changes, it cannot load other drivers, is one that is firmly entrenched in Linux territory. It's not about how significant or about how many times a kernel changes that causes a kernel to lose compatibility with a driver. It's about what kind of changes are made and what standards those new changes are held against. Unlike the Linux Kernel, Microsoft enforced their driver models so that the drivers stay compatible (WDM, WDDM, WDF, etc.). The bottom line is that if the Linux kernel ABI and API was stable, compatibility with proprietary binary drivers would greatly increase -- especially between kernel revisions. But Linux kernel devs have their reasons (pressure on hardware companies to release open source drivers, freedom to make any changes they want at the moment they see fit, etc.). I'm not the only one saying this either, you can find Ubuntu discussing this here: [url<]http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3868/[/url<] Going by your logic, it's impossible to ever retain any compatibility. That is flat out wrong.

            • kc77
            • 7 years ago

            I’ll keep this brief.

            [quote<]Are you just assuming that?[/quote<] Nope [quote<] Have you actually tried it before?[/quote<] Yup. [quote<]Yes, I can install the Windows 98 drivers in XP and have indeed done so. The original Sound Blaster Live! released for Windows 98 work with the exact same drivers in Windows XP SP3. [/quote<] You didn't do this because the initial drivers that shipped with SB Live were VxD not WDM. Creative didn't create those until later. Unless you bought your SB Live around the time Windows 2000 shipped your drivers were VxD. Speaking of WDM, you do realize it was created to address the one thing you said wasn't a problem right? (I guess you weren't thinking that thought process through) Either way it's been nice talking with you. I don't have time to continue this further. While I'm sure your additional words would be a good read I've reached my internal reply limit. Have fun!

            • bjm
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]You didn't do this because the initial drivers that shipped with SB Live were VxD not WDM. Creative didn't create those until later. Unless you bought your SB Live around the time Windows 2000 shipped your drivers were VxD.[/quote<] So you understand then that the WDM drivers would install both on Windows 98 and Windows 2000 then. Thank you for proving my point. [quote<]Speaking of WDM, you do realize it was created to address the one thing you said wasn't a problem right?[/quote<] Way to put words in my mouth. I never said Windows never had any issues with ABIs ever, I said that they took the steps to retain compatibility of which the WDM was one of them. The entire reason I've even claiming kernel ABI and API stability is precisely because of technologies like WDM. Which you just proved above! You're the one who built the strawman that Windows 95 drivers should be compatible with Windows 7. [quote<](I guess you weren't thinking that thought process through)[/quote<] You're the one who didn't think it through. You're the one said: [quote<]"You already see it on every major Windows release. Every major release requires a brand new driver and they aren't cross compatible either."[/quote<] Remember? Now, all of the sudden, you know what WDM is and are trying to tell me that it was originally intended to solve ABI and API issues? LOL. What a terrible backpedal because that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you and Deanjo this entire time! [quote<]Either way it's been nice talking with you. I don't have time to continue this further. While I'm sure your additional words would be a good read I've reached my internal reply limit. Have fun![/quote<] Hey, perfect time to leave since you proved my point. Have a good one!

      • can-a-tuna
      • 7 years ago

      You’ve said it: Windows Marketplace.

      • TheMonkeyKing
      • 7 years ago

      I agree Valve is worried about the commoditization of games. It started with the Apple App Store and now we have Google Play. The next thing is cloud distributed or sourced games (applications) from a Windows Store.

      When this happens, the bigger companies will use their resources, money, system-specific APIs to force/beg/steal smaller game makers to their “Store.” Steam will then just be the venue by which you can pick up Valve products. So how many Valve products are out there? Can we say the Steam Store is 5% Valve and 95% other vendors? Think what happens to Steam’s game catalog if Windows/Apple/Google decided to pay for sole distribution rights of the other 95%.

      Linux is the only space still not controlled by those companies. Google is in the Android space, not Linux specific.

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