Wednesday Shortbread

Eight is Enough

  1. Computerworld India: Researcher demonstrates promising ways to attack Windows 8
  2. Ars Technica: GNU founder Stallman calls DRM’d Steam for Linux games “unethical
  3. Updated Steam subscriber agreement
  4. X-bit labs: Seagate confirms loss of no. 1 position on HDD market
  5. Fudzilla: Nvidia responds to overclock warranty controversy
  6. VR-Zone on Intel Xeon Phi (B0 stepping): The knight in shining armor?
  7. AnandTech: Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition finally available:

    Sapphire Toxic HD 7970 GHz Edition 6GB

  8. TweakTown’s Nvidia GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB review


Wednesday

  1. X-bit labs: UMC seeks for strategic investors to sell 10% stake in the company

    and Intel’s new radio chip enables lower-cost 3G implementation

  2. techPowerUp!: MSI intros 4GB GeForce GTX 680 Twin Frozr III graphic card
  3. VR-Zone: Sapphire’s low-profile, single-slot Radeon HD 7750 graphics card launched
  4. BCCHardware podcast
  5. Peter Jackson announces The Hobbit will be a trilogy
  6. Futurelooks gives away a Gigabyte G1.Killer Assassin 2 motherboard
  7. Newegg’s quick-draw deals
  8. Dealzon’s deals: $70 off 14″ Toshiba U845 i3-2377M, $220 off 15.6″ hp

    G6-1d73us i3-2350M, $50 off 13.3″ Toshiba Portege Z935 i3-3217U /

    128GB SSD, and $141 off 90GB Kingston SSDNow V+200 2.5″

Mobile

  1. Fudzilla: Sony’s Xperia-branded tablet leaks
  2. XSReviews on Google Nexus 7 tablet
  3. MegaTechReviews on iHome IHM2BC iPod speaker dock

Software and gaming

  1. Phoronix pits Arch Linux vs. Slackware vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora
  2. BBC News: Ubisoft rushes to fix security hole exposed by plug-in
  3. Rockstar Games: Max Payne 3 Local Justice DLC for PC coming August 9th
  4. Bethesda Blog: Skyrim 1.7 available to all Steam users
  5. Blue’s News on Bethesda’s S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2 rumor
  6. Hardware Heaven and Techgage review Orcs Must Die! 2

Systems and storage

  1. TechSpot reviews Apple MacBook Pro with Retina graphics
  2. PC Perspective’s Lenovo ThinkPad X230 review
  3. Hardware.Info’s Asus Maximus V Extreme review
  4. Motherboards.org’s Biostar TZ77XE4 motherboard review and benchmarks
  5. OCC’s 8GB Patriot Viper 3 2133MHz memory kit review
  6. Tbreak’s 4TB WD My Book Thunderbolt Duo review
  7. KitGuru’s 256GB AData XPG SX910 SSD review
  8. X-bit labs on OCZ Vertex 4 with new firmware 1.5

Multimedia

  1. Madshrimps review AMD Radeon HD 7970
  2. techPowerUp! reviews Gigabyte HD 7970 SOC 3GB
  3. TechReviewSource on 42″ Panasonic TC-L42ET5 HDTV
  4. Hardware.Info reviews Sony Bravia HX850
  5. Technic3D’s GoPro HD Hero2 camera review (in German)
  6. Techgage reviews CM Storm Sonuz headset
  7. HTL reviews Rosewill RHTS-8206 headset
  8. TWL reviews Sharkoon DarkGlider mouse and mouse pad
  9. TweakTown’s SteelSeries Sensei mouse review
  10. Examiner.com reviews Corsair Vengeance M90

    mouse and updates gaming mouse buyer’s guide

Cases and cooling

  1. Hardware Canucks review Corsair Obsidian 550D case
  2. HTL’s CM Storm Stryker case review
  3. Legit Reviews on Thermaltake Water 2.0 Pro
  4. PureOC reviews XSPC RayStorm copper CPU water block
  5. Neoseeker on Cooler Master TPC-812 and Tt Frio Advanced CPU coolers
Comments closed
    • pragma
    • 7 years ago

    [list<]Phoronix pits Arch Linux vs. Slackware vs. Ubuntu vs. Fedora[/list<] This is why I hate Phoronix. Run some benches, then mindlessly plot some bars. No insights, no analysis offered. Is that cargo cult research or just a grab for ad revenue?

    • anotherengineer
    • 7 years ago

    Uh-oh I have a feeling we are going to hear mobo’s etc. going up in price soon.

    [url<]http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/storm_watch_stories3&stormfile=Taiwan_braces_for_Typhoon_Saola_31_07_2012?ref=ccbox_weather_topstories[/url<]

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      And record profits to be reported a year from now….

      Hell, Dell’s extended tech support will probably go up in cost as well with the massive power outage in India the other day.

    • Voldenuit
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]Ars Technica: GNU founder Stallman calls DRM'd Steam for Linux games "unethical" [/quote<] There is a lot of commercial and professional software for Linux that has DRM, usually in the form of license servers or user tokens. Fluent and PATRAN are two that I have used. Perhaps Stallman should call out OSX as well since it has FreeBSD and NetBSD components in it? I'm looking forward to Steam on Linux. I've been burned by MS enough that I'm seriously contemplating Linux as the OS on my next build, and it would be nice to have a *few* games for the platform at least.

      • BobbinThreadbare
      • 7 years ago

      I’m pretty sure Stallman wouldn’t like OSX if you asked him about it, and I’m positive he doesn’t use it himself.

    • DancinJack
    • 7 years ago

    The Samsung 830 128GB is on sale for 99 at both Amazon and Newegg today. Free shipping on both.

    • codedivine
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<] Computerworld India: Researcher demonstrates promising ways to attack Windows 8 [/quote<] Not promising to everyone 😛

    • l33t-g4m3r
    • 7 years ago

    [url=http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/valve-to-steam-users-no-class-action-suits/?comments=1#comments-bar<]Valve to Steam users: No class-action suits[/url<] More color of law illegal agreements. Last time I talked with a steam rep about the batman drm, I notified him that I do not agree to any of their crap aside from getting a game for my money, and nothing else. If EULA's are legal, then so was my notification about not agreeing to any of their terms.

      • sweatshopking
      • 7 years ago

      I agree with you that such bans shouldn’t be legal. THIS is something we agree on. It’s BS

    • yogibbear
    • 7 years ago

    Bethesda GRrrr… I can see it now… S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2 features:
    -more accessible game, no evil anomalies with nice little prizes inside that take time, brain power and skill to get to.
    -no hidden weapons in awkward, hard to get to places. Just make obvious quests give you the best weapon in the game for no apparent reason
    -no dark, gloomy, scary, psycho atmosphere, add in some card games and bad facial animation to get your point across
    -no emphasis on having to eat food, conserve rad meds, or bandages. Just grow a third arm.
    -no CGI’d multiple endings that all require specific things to accomplish. All endings accessible in a final room at the press of a few buttons or one difference in dialogue options.

    Having said that… if Obsidian somehow got their hands on the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. engine and were given a “go ahead and do what you will” it could be interesting, certainly different, but probably interesting. Problem is I see Bethesda reusing their own engine and putting a S.T.A.L.K.E.R. label on the container… which will suck. Bullet physics and graphics in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. were top notch.

      • Srsly_Bro
      • 7 years ago

      I agree. I bought SoC and CS on release day, and later bought CoP for 39.99. The games are awesome, although they do have their flaws, all three games are worth every penny paid.

      If the game is changed to make it more accessible and mainstream, it’ll push away its core audience and tarnish the name. I enjoy the tedious things about stalker, and feeling helpless until finding more powerful weapons hidden in stashes scattered throughout different maps.

      Bethesda, please don’t screw this up!

    • NeelyCam
    • 7 years ago

    Interesting shortbread tonight. Others are all over the Linux gaming news, so I’ll point to some of the other ones:

    [quote<]X-bit labs: Seagate confirms loss of no. 1 position on HDD market[/quote<] Analysts jumped on this already, claiming that PC is dead once again and sending Intel and AMD down. I guess they didn't bother to see if 1) WD gained market share, and 2) if SSDs gained market share. I bet Ultrabooks are skewing the HDD->PCMarket benchmarks already [quote<]X-bit labs: UMC seeks for strategic investors to sell 10% stake in the company[/quote<] Semi-collaborations all around; first it's Intel and AMSL, then it's TSMC and ARM. UMC felt left out... but who's left? I guess they need to reach out to MIPS+China [quote<]Intel's new radio chip enables lower-cost 3G implementation[/quote<] So, both Qualcomm and and Intel offer "two-chip" solutions; Qualcomm's is SoC/BaseBand/RF + PA, Intel's is SoC+BaseBand/RF/PA. To me, Qualcomm's solution seems better at the moment, although Intel could jump ahead if they integrate Cortex-A8/A7 together with BB/RF/PA onto the same chip for low-end (or if, as I've long predicted, they'll zoom past ARM in CPU efficiency with trigate and keep everything else on a separate low-cost radio chip for the high end) [quote<]Peter Jackson announces The Hobbit will be a trilogy[/quote<] Money money money money [i<]moo-neeyy[/i<]! [quote<]VR-Zone on Intel Xeon Phi (B0 stepping): The knight in shining armor?[/quote<] This sounds cool overall, but my favorite part is that [b<]Theo Valich[/b<] got to break the news! Must make Charlie hopping mad.. Looking forward to a disparaging semiaccurate post on all this (EDIT: formatting)

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<] Others are all over the Linux gaming news, so I'll point to some of the other ones:[/quote<] Quite possibly because it is the most exciting thing to happen in PC land in years.

      • sweatshopking
      • 7 years ago

      don’t you miss dpaus?

    • bjm
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]Ars Technica: GNU founder Stallman calls DRM'd Steam for Linux games "unethical"[/quote<] Aww, here we go... I disagree with a lot of what that man says, but you gotta hand it to him; He's always remained consistent and steadfast in his values. That being said, if Valve can pull this off and lead the way to bringing Linux desktop gaming to the masses, you'll have the FSF Priesthood singing "If loving you is wrong, I don't wanna be right" as they delete their TuxRacer saved games and move on to some real games.

      • McRuff
      • 7 years ago

      It is all about personal choice. No one would ever force him to have Steam on his Linux Machine. To me it is great to have that choice.

      • sschaem
      • 7 years ago


      In his statement, he says that closed-source games are “unethical because they deny freedom to their users.”

      Bunch of lunatics, anytime they open their mouth they just do a disservice to the open source effort 🙁

      He probably cant rent movies because the DVD doesn’t come with an access code to login onto the Warnner Studio mainframe to access all the raw footage and cultist “This is unethical, people should be able to re-cut the movie the way they want, they paid $4.95 they own it… They took our Freeeedom!”

        • Deanjo
        • 7 years ago

        IIRC, the movie rental question has been posed to him before and his reply was that he doesn’t rent them but gladly watches what is available at the library and what is OTA.

        • designerfx
        • 7 years ago

        It’s not really lunatic to refuse to compromise your values. He doesn’t do a disservice to anything except fud like your statement.

        If people really did stand up for things like Stallman does we’d have no concerns from companies like microsoft and apple, and we’d easily be 10+ years ahead in terms of standardization and technology.

        With that said, due to deliberate environments and control today is that practical? possibly not.

          • Theolendras
          • 7 years ago

          Fair point but, there is some values that are flawed as well. Think fachism, or racism. Not that his values are in the same category tough. Having interopable technology is a good thing for sure, but denying closed software that has no open source equivalent in the entertainement business is not helping the cause. Growing the user base would go a long way which in turn would help linux development as well.

            • designerfx
            • 7 years ago

            I don’t think his values are anywhere near fascism or racism. He has a lot of facts behind his views. If you look at cellphones for example, you are tracked in about a million different ways by using one. You may not consciously decide to make that decision but good luck trying to decline the tracking. Anyway.

            So you have closed software (proprietary) and want to create an open equivalent to improve functionality.

            How do you do it? Do you – allow it in the first place, basically saying carry on? Or do you reverse engineer the tech which has basically been made illegal in a variety of ways lately? Or, do you try to get the company to actually work with you (fat chance)? Do you think microsoft or apple cares about open sourcing anything they deem proprietary? Do you work with the proprietary vendor? I say no, absolutely not.

            What would be an actual solution? Showing that there’s demand via growing the user base is it, as you said. That’s about all I can think of.

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            I also don’t think Theolendras ever directly compared said values with fascism or racism. His point was that values can be wrong. He brought up fascism and racism because both are sets of values that are flawed…actually, they are more than flawed.

            Now specifically, I think the attitude that “any closed-source software is bad” is flawed. The issue is human nature, and it is similar to why communism will never work (at least not on any large scale). The producers (software developers) would like to get paid for their work, and while open-source allows for some more creativity (one would hope), it’s not considered as profitable as close kept trade secrets. Since it has been (and will likely continue to be) so much more profitable to use closed-source software, so the market will stay.

          • Jason181
          • 7 years ago

          The thing is, Windows *is* standardization. It might not be standardization you like, but it is the standard for business and personal computers.

          I’m pretty sure that the people who wholeheartedly believe in open source are already standing up, but they’re in the minority because most people just want their computers to “work” and in a way that makes sense to them.

          Open source doesn’t always promote standardization; look at all the different Linux distros and the idiosyncracies of the various builds of the kernel.

          I’d venture to say that having a single, dominant operating system has done more to advance standardization than anything other than x86 in the PC world.

      • blastdoor
      • 7 years ago

      Gee, I wonder why Linux never took off in the consumer space.

        • Firestarter
        • 7 years ago

        That would’ve been most unethical.

      • Kurotetsu
      • 7 years ago

      He also acknowledges the benefits of what Valve is doing:

      [quote=”Richard Stallman”<]But he also believes that users are “better off” running them on an open Linux-based platform rather than Windows. “This development can do both harm and good. It might encourage GNU/Linux users to install these games, and it might encourage users of the games to replace Windows with GNU/Linux,” he wrote. “My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm. But there is also an indirect effect: what does the use of these games teach people in our community?”[/quote<] He, at least, realizes that closed source software like Steam can increase Linux's exposure to the general public.

      • chuckula
      • 7 years ago

      Stallman isn’t really that consistent or steadfast in his values. Case in point: For enough $$$ he’ll gladly hop on a plane that runs on closed-source commercial software to come out and preach that it would be vastly more ethical for every single person on the plane he flew on to die in agony in a plane crash where the software for the plane happened to be “free” software vs. safely arriving at the destination using software that isn’t “free.” Note that he exempts himself from the suffering that he has no problem inflicting on others in the name of his religion. Yes that makes no logical sense.

      Yes he actually believes that and gladly charges money to preach that message. No I’m really not hyperbolizing with that statement, go look at the things he’s publicly written if you think I’m off base there.

        • Deanjo
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]Case in point: For enough $$$ ... [/quote<] He has no problem, and never has had a problem with people making money off of supporting their product and is what he is doing. The guy however does have some serious mental health and sociological issues however that clouds over his "message" most times whenever he opens his mouth.

      • Deanjo
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Aww, here we go... I disagree with a lot of what that man says, but you gotta hand it to him; He's always remained consistent and steadfast in his values.[/quote<] As do all sociopaths.

      • Grigory
      • 7 years ago

      I really thought that Linux users moved away from the freeloader image. I guess most still did but a lot still cling to it.

      • Theolendras
      • 7 years ago

      Might as well say it’s unethical to earn a wage as a developper…

      I kind of see the point to be open when it’s related to the OS itself , shell or drivers, but common, it is good to have professionnal software available. Refuse it is just luring users away from GNU/Linux.

        • Deanjo
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]Refuse it is just luring users away from GNU/Linux.[/quote<] In Stallmans views, closing off any part of the software voids it being GNU/Linux (which is one of the reasons that Torvalds refuses to call it GNU/Linux and just refers to it as Linux.). For it to qualify as a GNU/Linux, the entire system has to be "free" and is why there are only 9 distributions that qualify for GNU/Linux status (none of which are even remotely popular). So to refuse it or not doesn't matter as allowing closed source software on such a system already has lured it away from the GNU/Linux philosophy.

      • l33t-g4m3r
      • 7 years ago

      Have you seen Valve’s latest user agreement? I’d say stallman has a point. There is both positive and negatives with steam, and yes Steam’s DRM is unethical. After all, valve seems to think they can change their TOS at any time whatsoever, to any terms whatsoever, and you HAVE to comply or not get access to your games you paid for under the OLD TOS. Bunch of crap it is.

        • Deanjo
        • 7 years ago

        In theory you have to “comply” with items in linux as well such as the terms of the licenses, for better or for worse. Same ****, different pile. Don’t like the terms, don’t use the software. The greatest freedom after all is the freedom of choice.

          • l33t-g4m3r
          • 7 years ago

          Linux doesn’t retroactively change it’s TOS, nor do I think doing that is legal. You know what you’re getting into with linux, unlike valve, plus their terms help the user vs hurt the user with valve. Valve holds your software HOSTAGE if you don’t agree to any and all new terms. I can’t see things getting better for the users as valve gets more paranoid of the competition.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Linux doesn't retroactively change it's TOS,[/quote<] Re-licensing is always a possibility. It does take some effort as all parties with contributions have to agree or their contributions removed. For example if they all agreed to move to GPL v3, a whole new set of limitations kicks in that would exclude some from using it as they were before. [quote<]nor do I think doing that is legal.[/quote<] It is very legal, which is why nearly all TOS carry a clause like so (and which has remained in Steams TOS since the beginning): [quote<]9. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT [b<]Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion.[/b<]If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at [url<]http://www.steampowered.com/.[/url<] Your failure to cancel your Account, or cease use of the Subscription(s) affected by the amendment, within thirty (30) days after receiving notification of the amendment, will constitute your acceptance of the amended terms. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s). Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances. [/quote<] You lose any real legal recourse as you accepted the terms in the first place. If you did not agree to it then you should not have that software installed in the first place and it has zero effect on you.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            Just because something is in a contract doesn’t make it legal.

            Also, forcing a user to agree to an EULA *after* buying the license doesn’t seem like it should be legal either.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            That’s the thing though, they did not make any changes that were in conflict within the original terms. You also agree in pretty much every TOS that they may terminate the license at any point for what ever reason they feel warrants it. Again, if you did not agree to those terms in the first place then you would have never experienced any changes. The TOS are provided to you upon installation and signup of Steam, not after.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            What I’m saying is that I don’t think that reserving the right to make unilateral changes would stand up in court if the side that got burned had enough money to fight it properly (of course if that was the case they likely would have negotiated a better deal in the first place).

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            There have been plenty of cases tried where that has exactly happened and has held up in court just fine. Hell if it wasn’t legal we would never see anything like a raise in utility rates, changes in services provided across many industries. When you do an update or upgrade of windows for example, you are not hanging on to the original terms of Win 2k EULA but yet items like limiting the installation of certain versions of windows to specific machines came about, license checks etc were all accepted. Hell you would think if there was one thing that could be challenged successfully it would have been for items like WGA.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Hell if it wasn't legal we would never see anything like a raise in utility rates, changes in services provided across many industries.[/quote<] In Illinois the utilities have to get permission from the legislature to raise rates. And WGA was optional.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            It may have been optional at one point but it is no longer the case. I also believe that the utilities in Illinois require legislation to approve any rate hikes before purchasing it from the supplier. I could be wrong but never the less it is done without the end users consent.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"Re-licensing"[/quote<] Doesn't retroactively affect anything. If some linux software company changes the license and the community doesn't agree with it, they just fork it under a different license. There are plenty examples of this. [quote<]"It is very legal"[/quote<] No it's not. The EULA doesn't invalidate rights that you already have, and has already been proven in court to not be legally binding. The ruling in the UK is why steam changed it's EULA, because they FEAR a class action suit forcing them to remove their illegal restrictions. If anything, this change is grounds FOR a class action suit. PS. I've already notified steam's support department that I don't agree to their TOS regardless of clicking accept, and that's as legally binding as their EULA is. Also, if gamestop starts allowing downloadable games to be resold, that's going to set even more precedent and put steam in a worse position than it already is. Look, I don't even care to resell my steam games, but what I am pissed about is valve running around like fascist pigs telling me I have to agree to jump through all their freaking hoops and agree to new terms whenever I want to play my games. Things don't work like that in the real world, and valve is not an exception. The only thing saving their bacon is the community still supports the service, and once that mindset changes they're in for a world of hurt.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Doesn't retroactively affect anything. If some linux software company changes the license and the community doesn't agree with it, they just fork it under a different license. There are plenty examples of this.[/quote<] Oh no, say they did change the license and excluded previous other users. Any advancements in the re-licensed code maybe incompatible with the original license and as such that fork is unable to use it. It does effect a lot. Yes you can fork, but only up to the stage that it allows to be done so where the terms are still favorable. There have been plenty of forks sure, but a very high percentage of those also fail to go anywhere. [quote<]PS. I've already notified steam's support department that I don't agree to their TOS regardless of clicking accept, and that's as legally binding as their EULA is.[/quote<] And they would be well within their right to terminate your subscription by doing so.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"And they would be well within their right to terminate your subscription by doing so."[/quote<] But they haven't, and it's been more than 30 days, so it's a legally binding contract. Which means they don't have the right to terminate my account. Not that their EULA is legal anyway. "Subscription" is not an accurate term for what steam is, and it never was. If anything, that is the sole legal loophole that is saving their butt from lawsuits, but it's not a subscription. Steam is a digital distributor. They sell games at retail prices, and you get the same experience as retail software. The only thing that steam offers that is a service is it's community services, the games are not a service, and I'm not paying money for a service. Any good lawyer could argue that.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"Subscription" is not an accurate term for what steam is, and it never was.[/quote<] That is exactly what a software license is. You never own the software, but you are allowed to use it according to the TOS. Hell the document is called [quote<]STEAM® [b<]SUBSCRIBER[/b<] AGREEMENT[/quote<] for a reason. [quote<]But they haven't, and it's been more than 30 days, so it's a legally binding contract.[/quote<] You have not read the terms if you think that is how it works. [quote<][b<]Your failure to cancel your Account, or cease use of the Subscription(s) affected by the amendment, within thirty (30) days after receiving notification of the amendment, will constitute your acceptance of the amended terms. [/b<][/quote<] You can say you disagree all you want but by not cancelling your subscription (not just saying you disagree) you are agreeing to them.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"license"[/quote<] Gotcha! Licenses can be sold, you do own them, first sale doctrine and EU ruling confirms that.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            Ya, and if the I owned steam and used that term then you would have that right. Since Steam however does not use the term license it is all for not. It is a subscription service just like any other service. I can’t for example resell my cable connection.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            Steam is a distributor. The service is the social networking aspect, which I could do without or pay an indepentent subscription fee to access, and regardless of steam’s TOS all games come with a license. Steam is no different than Walmart in that aspect. All we need is a good lawsuit to force valve to admit those are the actual conditions.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            No, Valve is a distributor, Steam is a service subscription. It is more akin to something like hotmail or gmail which are also subscription services. For example if Gmail changes their layout or makes a change to that service that is within their rights and outlined in their TOS.

            Subscriptions do not necessarily imply a paid service.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"Subscriptions do not necessarily imply a paid service."[/quote<] And what is the service you are "subscribing" to? The service is the social networking, like xbox live. The distribution is the games. Amazon is a digital distributor for instance, and they don't claim to be a "service". What steam is doing is attempting to blur the lines, and only a complete freaking MORON would fall for this and not differentiate the two. I can virtually guarantee steam's EULA/TOS will not hold up in court, as there is way too much precedent against them. edit: It's also pretty obvious you have two TR accounts and are logging into both of them to downvote me, as you are the only one arguing your point with enough of a delay between downvotes and posts to infer two accounts. Not that I care if you are, I'm still right.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]Amazon is a digital distributor for instance, and they don't claim to be a "service". [/quote<] I suggest you read Amazons Conditions of Use, it refers to itself as a service several times over. I also do not have two accounts. The head gerbils can testify to that. (Nor do I wish to as votes either way mean sfa to me).

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]"it refers to itself as a service several times over"[/quote<] See, now you're just making things up to support your view, which is still WRONG, btw. I'm not claiming amazon isn't as restrictive, but they certainly aren't claiming to be a service. However, they DO offer services which are considered separate from regular software, and regular software is consistently referred to being LICENSED to YOU, regardless of the bogus license restrictions that aren't legal to enforce. [quote<]Through the Store, you can browse, purchase, download and/or access video games, business and consumer software, and related digital products and content, including Add-On Products ("Applications"). "Add-On Products" are digital products, such as additional or enhanced functionality, virtual currency, special weapons or characters, or subscription access to content or services, that are intended to be accessed or used within certain Applications. Applications include any client software used to access the Application, any content, documentation, ads, services, technology, data and other digital materials included in or made available through an Application (including after you download or initially access it), and through any updates and other changes and versions of the Application. Some Applications are available for download to your computer or other local device, while other Applications are hosted on servers and are made available for use over the internet via client software or web page links we make available ("Online Applications"). The party that provides an Application to us for distribution is the "Publisher" of the Application. Most of the Applications we make available through the Store are licensed to you by third-party Publishers.We may make some Applications available via the Store at no charge and others for a price, as further described on our Application product detail pages. From time to time, we may offer sales, give-aways and other promotions in the Store. We may modify or discontinue any of those promotions at any time without notice to you.[/quote<] You know what else? Let's define Service. ser·vice noun \ˈsər-vəs\ useful labor that does not produce a tangible commodity. Is steam's social networking a service? Yes. Are the games a service? Hell, NO. That's a PRODUCT.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [url<]http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200205280[/url<] [quote<]This is an agreement between you and [b<]Amazon Digital Services, Inc.[/b<][/quote<]

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            Yeah, I just quoted from it. You apparantly didn’t read it.

            Amazon specifically says LICENSES.
            [quote<]3.3 Separate Licenses to Use Applications. Your use of an Application will be governed by the terms and conditions of an end user license agreement between you and the Publisher or other licensor of the Application (a "EULA"). The Publisher or other licensor has the right to enforce the EULA against you. If you choose not to accept a EULA for an Application, you must not use that Application. This Agreement does not amend or supersede any license or other agreement between you and the Publisher of an Application. Amazon is not a party to the EULA for any Application (unless Amazon is the Publisher of the Application). If you receive an Application that is not accompanied by a EULA, then Publisher grants to you only a limited license to download (if applicable), access the Application for personal purposes. The Applications are protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws and treaties. Amazon, Publishers or other licensors own the title, copyright and other intellectual property rights in the Applications, and the Applications are licensed, not sold.[/quote<]

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            You don’t seem to be reading what you are posting.

            [quote<]Your use of an Application will be governed by the terms and conditions of an end user license agreement between[b<] you and the Publisher[/b<] or other licensor of the Application (a "EULA"). [/quote<] [quote<]Amazon, Publishers or other licensors own the title, copyright and other intellectual property rights in the Applications, and the Applications are licensed, [b<]not sold.[/b<][/quote<] Again, the changes to the Steam subscriber agreement effect Steam. You still have other restrictions as well from the software publisher as well. If you do not agree to those terms you are free to cut out the middle man and purchase the product directly from the publisher.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            Let me refresh your memory of what you’ve been previously arguing here:
            [quote<]"read Amazons Conditions of Use, it refers to itself as a service several times"[/quote<] I think I've sufficiently proven that Amazon is not selling games as a service, but selling individual licenses. I'm not arguing how Amazon enforces the licenses, just that they are licensed and not defined as a service. Therefore, amazon is selling a product. [quote<]Again, the changes to the Steam subscriber agreement effect Steam.[/quote<] And I'm not arguing otherwise. The only thing I'm saying is that Games are a Product, and Steam is a Service. Valve is being deliberately vague about their service, and blurring the line between the two. I could care less about having access to steam as a service, if that meant cleaner and unfettered access to my games as a Product. Not only that, but I would be willing to pay a subscription fee like xbox live for steam, if that's what was necessary to separate the two. Valve doesn't really have the right to deny access to a Product I've paid for, but they can deny the service, which at this point in time does both, and that my friend is what needs to change.

            • NeelyCam
            • 7 years ago

            Wow, what a discussion – not a single comment with a plus rating.. impressive!

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            deanjo vs l33t! Two of the most passionate arguing opposite positions! i’d love to see those boys in real life chatting.

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            Mr. g4m3r, you seem to be hellbent on attacking those you disagree with and are not considering the possibility that you are incorrect. You claim that Steam’s EULA/ToS would not hold up in court, but there are two problems with this.

            First off, companies like Valve pay lawyers to write EULAs and ToS so that they [i<]will[/i<] hold up in court. Certain provisions are not guaranteed to hold, but this is part of the reason that they change. They are supposed to be legally binding as to protect copyrights, etc. And even if a court ruled against Valve, it is unlikely that the entire EULA/ToS would be thrown out. It is more likely that they would strike certain clauses, paragraphs, or sections while maintaining the majority of the agreement. Secondly, there are many court systems. The US can roughly be divided up into local, state, and federal, but Steam crosses borders, so foreign courts at multiple levels are also relevant. Even though one court in the UK might have ruled one way, it does not mean that the ruling would cross the ocean and hold up in US courts or even be cited as precedent with respect to US law. Finally, consider the possibility that more than two gerbils are reading this thread and using his or her votes to provide feedback rather than commenting on every single point in this discussion.

            • l33t-g4m3r
            • 7 years ago

            I agree with all of your points, however that doesn’t mean steam is correct or that their EULA will hold up in court. They know this and are freaking out, thus the illegal ban on class action suits. You can’t define a product as a service, and that’s what steam is attempting to do. Nobody else is doing this.

            Steam itself is the service, games are a product. Valve is merely attempting to blend the two together, which since the service is required to access your PRODUCTs, limits your use of said product. Do away with the service and your product is no longer limited. Not that I want that, but I do want valve to stop calling my games a service.

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            They are toeing a line…I am not so convinced that “banning” class action suits is illegal (of course, a class action suit could be filed against that provision, I think). The wording is interesting. While they are pushing claims into arbitration, said arbitration is being handled through a third party, which might be viewed as impartial and therefore valid. On top of that, Valve is shouldering expenses. While I am not convinced that this provision will stand, I think it more likely than forcing all arbitration through Valve lawyers, which would be more likely to fall.

            But on the terms “product” and “service,” I am afraid that they are essentially the same when it comes to digital goods and services. Physical products are easy because you can buy a car, apple, or Apple computer. Physical services are different because there is not always a physical exchange, such as the process of changing the oil in your new car or clearing viruses from your computer. Digital goods, however, don’t always involve a physical handoff. Even though a good has been “produced,” there is not always a physical form, so the “product” behaves more like a service. This is made more complicated by the digital distribution age, which require supplemental services in the day-to-day use of the digital product, which is exactly the case with Valve games running through Steam.

            Honestly, I don’t think anything is clearly “legal” or “illegal” in this case until we have a legal precedent (set by a high US court) or legislation outlining rules and limitations for these agreements. I think we have some legislation, but it is obviously not sufficient because all of these provisions are being settled through court orders and judicial review. This is why I suggested that we solve this outside of the courts through a “digital bill of rights.” That way, we would at least have laws that could be supported by law enforcement or a dedicated agency, and courts would only rule on interpretations of said laws. Which, incidentially, would not be subject to change without notification.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            While I agree with the premise that it’s WRONG, i have no idea about whether it’s technically illegal, nor do i care. there is PLENTY that’s LEGAL and injust. the new TOS are NOT fair, and maybe they’ll hold up, maybe they won’t, but either way, it’s a dick move.

            • superjawes
            • 7 years ago

            Lawyered…

            As long as digital games, software, and services are bound by ToS and EULAs, you basically accept them or do not get the service. That weighs the system heavily in favor of the one providing the agreement (of course).

            [soapbox]

            Hasn’t someone proposed a “digital bill of rights” on this matter, though? It ought to apply to all agreements (credit cards, EULAs, and employment contracts), but digital is something special because there aren’t physical signatures involved. As long as you are willing to argue, you can legally strike out lines in a contract that you do not agree with. The other party might not agree to the strikeout, but there is a conversation path available. Digital is different because one party is always excluded. Only the user is present to accept the agreement, and when said agreement is revised, the user is excluded.

            A simple list of how things will hold up in court, specifically regarding certain rights of the user could sort this out. This would help to allow the selling of “used” licenses, whether it be to a new user or back to the company. Since services like Steam and Origin are only going to grow and gain competition for some time, I would also like a provision covering the possibility of the service going away, either providing the user with a permanent copy of the media or reasonable compensation for purchased digital goods.

            It’s not just a conversation about what is currently legal, what is not currently legal, and what will be argued to death in the courts. The long term assessment of digital properties ought to be thouroughly discussed and legislated appropriately.

            [/soapbox]

    • Grape Flavor
    • 7 years ago

    lol. Linux / free software evangelists complaining about Steam-on-Linux because “closed-source games are unethical”. The very existence of proprietary software offends the delicate souls of these select few who would choose to cast aside all progress in the name of maintaining the purity of their ideology.

    haha, okay hippie. have fun with that. Enjoy your Tux Racer while I go play the likes of Skyrim and Battlefield 3.

      • bjm
      • 7 years ago

      LOL, you beat me to it.

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