Ballmer touts early Windows 8 adoption

The pundits may be harping on the allegedly lukewarm response to Windows 8, but Microsoft doesn’t sound unhappy. As PC World reports, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer took to the stage at the BUILD conference today to boast about Windows 8 adoption since the October 26 launch:

"In just the last three days, we have sold 4 million Windows 8 upgrades," Ballmer said Tuesday at the conference in Redmond, Wash. "The level of embrace from enthusiasts is very, very high."
Ballmer noted that Microsoft has also sold "tens of millions" of corporate licenses for Windows 8 as well. Organizations "can upgrade when they want to but have no time pressure to do that anytime soon," he said.

Ballmer also characterized enthusiasm for Windows 8 PCs as "remarkable," and he went on to predict that "hundreds of millions of Windows systems [will be] sold in the next year." (Presumably, each of those systems will have a Windows 8 or Windows RT license.)

To be fair, however, four million licenses in three days might not be that impressive for a Windows OS launch. Back in July, Apple announced that downloads of OS X Mountain Lion had "exceeded three million" within just four days of release, which isn’t too far off—but we all know Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market than Microsoft.

Comments closed
    • moose17145
    • 7 years ago

    And how many of those OS’s were computer nerds who only picked up a few licenses for the simple fact they could get them cheap as heck, for no other reason than to have them BECAUSE they were cheap, and are either running Win8 inside a VM, or not at all, and are just sticking with Windows 7 as their primary OS for the time being?

    As much as MS did a good job on the under the hood things… none of it means jack. 99% of people are despising the GUI on the desktop, and even laptops, and saying they wished MS would have left the traditional desktop and start menu in place because it works better for KB and mouse. All those under the hood things are not up front and center… but the GUI is. It is the first thing that people see and will relate to. I expect windows 8 to be another windows ME / Vista. And hopefully windows 9 will be another windows XP / 7. MS likes to keep saying that windows 8 is all about customizability… if thats true… give us the damn start menu back and let us choose which interface we prefer to use! And no, I am not going to go to the dumb MS store and download a third party app for something that was already natively coded into the dang OS which you decided to tear out at the last minute.

    • green
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]To be fair, however, four million licenses in three days might not be that impressive for a Windows OS launch. Back in July, Apple announced that downloads of OS X Mountain Lion had "exceeded three million" within just four days of release, which isn't too far off—but we all know Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market than Microsoft.[/quote<] to be fair again, you could ONLY download mountain lion via the app store

    • shaq_mobile
    • 7 years ago

    Sigh. Our company is already talking about windows 8 when we still haven’t moved all the way to windows 7. Then again, our CIO wants us to use windows aero, to show the users (he calls them customers) how “cool” and up to date we are. I think he forgot that our computer replacement cycle is 7 years (realistically more like 8 or 9) and that 1 gig of ram and a P4 isn’t gonna care how “cool” our department wants to look.

    I wouldn’t take corporate following as anything other than someone near the top reading too much CEO Weekly. I suppose it could be worse, like when people read CEO Weekly with ambition. I get the same feeling when I see stuff like this at work that I get when I hear about the Bieber’s and JTT’s. Someone really high up decides what you get to experience, regardless of any practical regard.

    • ronch
    • 7 years ago

    Sorry Steve. I don’t care if you sold a bajillion copies. I’m sticking with Win7.

    • Forge
    • 7 years ago

    Given the giveaway pricing for upgrades at the moment, I’m sure the unspoken parts go like this:

    “We’ve sold over 4 million Windows 8 licenses! Almost one hundred have actually been used to install, and we’ve made sixty eight dollars! We’re only 59.9 billion dollars away from covering our R&D costs and starting on the marketing debt!”

    • HisDivineOrder
    • 7 years ago

    This happens with every Windows release. Ballmer tries to build up enthusiasm by announcing record sales, etc, etc, and how it’s being installed in all new computers and everyone loves it and it’s not as bad as people think and it’s great and awesome and spectacular and Apple sucks and Google doesn’t matter.

    Rah, rah, rah.

    Thing is, knowing this happened with Vista AND with Windows 7, I think it’s meaningless PR fluff.

    • Scrotos
    • 7 years ago

    [i<]Ballmer noted that Microsoft has also sold "tens of millions" of corporate licenses for Windows 8 as well. Organizations "can upgrade when they want to but have no time pressure to do that anytime soon," he said.[/i<] That sounds like software assurance, where you pay a subscription for support and licenses and get "free" upgrades when new stuff comes out as long as you're "subscribed." MS isn't seriously considering people on SA to be purchasing tens of millions of licenses, are they? I'm sure they all magically will "purchase" Office 2013 when it comes out, too, ya?

    • Arclight
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]To be fair, however, four million licenses in three days might not be that impressive for a Windows OS launch. Back in July, Apple announced that downloads of OS X Mountain Lion had "exceeded three million" within just four days of release, which isn't too far off—but we all know Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market than Microsoft.[/quote<] Yes, exactly. Given the percentage of users, 4 million is a small number. W8 sounds like WAIT. I'm def. not buying that crap any time soon.

      • NeelyCam
      • 7 years ago

      Maybe it’s more like Win7 is so good there is little reason to upgrade to Win8, while OS X “upgrades” are so cheap the iFolks have little reason not to..?

        • Arclight
        • 7 years ago

        It’s not just cost bro. Even if it costs me 1 Euro i’m not “upgrading” since i would be hampering my experience. My PC is not a damn tablet, period. I want my open platform back. You think they won’t close it completly with the next instalment? I’m not gonna support that by validating their choices and giving them more money.

    • tootercomputer
    • 7 years ago

    I found this to be a compelling insight. Whether it plays out, time will tell, but intriguing nonetheless.

    [url<]http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411531,00.asp[/url<]

      • l33t-g4m3r
      • 7 years ago

      Absolutely. People don’t know what they are getting into and Microsoft isn’t [url=http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/3514556/windows-8-vs-windows-rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees<]helping[/url<] matters either. I too predict a massive exodus, one which could have easily been avoided with transparency instead of propaganda.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        OH NOES! [quote<] thousands will be returned [/quote<] thousands of every multimillion selling device are returned. HYPERBOLE FTW!

    • danny e.
    • 7 years ago

    in much more important news, the new flyleaf album is out. try before you buy:
    [url<]http://www.totalassault.com/players/flyleaf/[/url<] fire. fire.

      • NeelyCam
      • 7 years ago

      It’s OK. Not quite progressive or heavy enough for my taste, but fine stuff nonetheless

    • bcronce
    • 7 years ago

    I had my brother-in-law stop over for me to “clean” his newly purchased laptop. It had Win8 on it. He’s a car junkie and rarely uses computers, but he actually “likes” Win8. He said he did attempt to return it, but the guy at the story gave him a quick 5 min look-around so see the basics.

    Cleaning his computer was my first time using Win8 at all. I found it kind of “meh”. Not good nor bad. I was able to get used to it faster than I got used to Win7.

    Only about an hour with it, but it did look slick.

    The real question is how well the UI “multi-tasks”, which I was not able to test at all.

    • danny e.
    • 7 years ago

    In a world of very few choices of OS vendors, sales numbers are fairly meaningless. The real story teller will be market share 3 years from now. Does Windows start losing the 90% of the desktop share it’s held for almost ever?

    You have beef, pork, chicken, turkey. Suddenly, Mr farmer man decides to feed his cattle a crap load of drugs and paint preschool pictures on every cow which he calls “metro”. Well, lots of the population cant eat pork. And really.. turkey is just rich peoples chicken. Which means, most of the population.. is going to continue buying beef. Not so much because they agree with Mr farmer mans decisions or his childish mood swings but because there really isnt a good alternative.

      • danny e.
      • 7 years ago

      I guess that makes Linux chicken, and turkey is OS X. apple os?
      So, android must be pork. that forbidden meat against the religion of any apple lover.

      mmmm bacon

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      That analogy deserves a +1

      especially the “childish mood swings”….

    • cjava2
    • 7 years ago

    Steve Ballmer has a great track record of predicting what the market will embrace.

    For example, in 2007, he thought the iPhone was too expensive and will flop 😛 And no physical keyboard? Businesses will reject it!

    [url<]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U&feature=related[/url<]

      • Arag0n
      • 7 years ago

      And he was right, everyone that repeats this sentence as example forgets that at that time the iPhone was launch at 500$ AFTER subsides…. Apple had to embrace 3G and reduce the price to 200$ to make the iPhone 3G the success we all know….

      By the way, I hope you make the same fun 5 years later once Windows 8 hybrids are a very successful market and Apple has to release some kind of OSX hybrid to compete about Tim Cook and “Fridges being toasters”.

        • cjava2
        • 7 years ago

        When something groundbreaking comes along, I respect it. I was one of the early adopters who bought the 8GB iPhone at launch for $600 subsidized…and I still felt it was a good deal. There was nothing like that back then. It also didn’t hurt that Apple eventually gave us a $100 rebate to early adopters. At that point in time the only Apple product I had ever bought was a Macbook Pro, so I wasn’t some die-hard Apple fanatic (and still am not).

        I’m a Windows 8 user (on PC), and aside from the tiles crap that’s shoved down my throat forcibly by Microsoft, I feel that it is a great OS. I don’t appreciate them forcing Metro/Modern/whatever it is called now onto us PC users.

        The current trend I’m seeing is that I’m getting more into Google products, first the Nexus 7 tablet, and I’ll be getting the Nexus 4 phone in 2 weeks.

        No, I don’t hate Microsoft. I’ve been an Windows user since the Windows 3.0 days. I even used to make a living as a Pocket PC programmer back in college. I tried out a Surface earlier this week at a “temporary” Microsoft store/kiosk at the mall but wasn’t impressed. It just feels like they are a giant dinosaur, slow to adapt, and when they do make something to try to break into the market, it feels half-assed.

        Example: [url<]http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/[/url<]

          • Arag0n
          • 7 years ago

          Funny thing, I’ve been playing with a Surface RT also and I was pretty happy with the experience. I tried all the main features and everything worked flawless. I happen to believe that Microsoft is on something with Windows RT because it allows you to do something as stupid as keep an IM, Videochat or a website in a small sized window as reference or just to keep a look to what you are doing. You can have a small sized window to IM while playing games too. that improves and solves one of my problems I had since I was a 13 years old, How the hell do I play and keep track of someone talking to me on MSN, Skype, GTalk or whatever service I was using at that time? I remember boring afternoons without playing because I was talking to someone or missing so many people messages because I was playing…

          I don’t think WIndows RT is halfassed at all, it just misses the polish and refinement that software gets after several updates. Did we forget that the original iPhone had no apps, no games, no nothing? It just had video, music, web and some basic apps apple tho they had to add. Comparing the iPhone at launch to Windows Mobile or Symbian was an onslaught both from applications available and features. Apple didn’t made iOS a viable mainstream platform till iOS 3.X, 2+ years after iPhone launch, juas as google didn’t make Android a competitive platform against iOS till Android 2.1… Surface RT is a 1.0 product and it’s an amazing first release that sets a pretty amazing image of what Windows RT will become after phew years of refinement and improvement. Your problem with Windows RT is that you want it to be as polished as other OS’s at launch, but it will never happen, just as Apple can’t roll out a maps app that competes with Google without several years of improving.

            • cjava2
            • 7 years ago

            As a software developer, I feel that Microsoft absolutely could have nailed down the user experience a lot better at launch. They have two great benchmarks to compare against — iOS and Android. When iOS was launched in 2007, they had nothing to benchmark against that was anything like it. Windows 8 has been in development for years, it’s not like they started in 2011.

            Your point about Google Maps vs Apple Maps is misleading. The actual app itself is trivial to develop, it’s the sheer volume of geo data that’s so hard to keep up-to-date. That doesn’t compare with the iterative process of developing new software features, as what they do is a lot more daunting.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            As software developer too, I know pretty well that some things need to be in the field and under usage in order to find and fix the problems. No matter how much you test your software, you always use your applications and software as you envisioned, but people usually doesn’t. Sometimes you don’t expect some scenarios to be possible and those scenarios escape your checking and testing for consistency and performance. Many people already pointed that some of the performance issues with some games that were tested in reviews have been already ironed and there is so many applications upgrading every day. That’s because no matter what you say, software and developers need to have applications in the field, get reports about crashes and use those reports to find the bugs they couldn’t find. 6 months from now, the software and performance picture under Windows RT will be dramatically different from now.

            You can say that Windows RT has iOS and Android as a mirror but you ignore that it doesn’t matter for your own software…. it works well as a reference tow hat users expect to do and the performance level you can expect. But how does it help Windows to polish and improve it’s own new interactions and way to navigate Windows RT, specially given that RT is dramatically different than any other talbet OS out there? People seems to forget many things.

            iPhone at launch had no apps, Symbian and WM had a healthy app ecosystem at that time.
            iPhone at launch had no 3G network. It was common even for feature phones to have 3G.
            iPhone at launch had a 320×480 screen. At that time some devices had 640×480 screens.
            iPhone at launch websites were not optimized for mobile, neither it had a proper browser/horsepower for full size websites.
            iPhone at launch had no cloud storage. You had to sync from phone to laptop in a periodical basis to backup your photos and data.

            I can continue, but you know how it ends….

            Android at launch had no native code development support.
            Android at launch required JAVA as ONLY development language and used a virtual machine with NO JUST IN TIME COMPILATION.
            Android at launch and till not so long ago rendered the UI in CPU.
            Android at launch and for almost a year had no applications able to call using WIFI or Data.
            Android at launch was ugly as hell!
            Android at launch the original device had a physical keyboard and even keyboard-less devices use to have a rotationary-ball like BB devices for navigation proposes.
            Most of Android 1.0 and 1.5 devices NEVER saw Android 2.0 updates.
            Most of Android devices with 2.1-2.3 will never see/be able to update to +4.X

            I can continue… should I?

            At the time that Android and iOS launched most of the incapabilities I pointed for both, were a non-issue for WM neither Symbian. People moved to iOS and Android because Symbian was ugly and WM was buggy, but both, Android and iOS were extremly unmature and lacking platforms at launch. Both platforms took a sweet time (around 2 years) to become feature complete, and be able to compete with old platforms in services and application development.

            Now you come to me, and you say that Microsoft is releasing Windows RT that is almost as feature rich and at parity with Android and iOS, with some problems of performance and user interface interactions here and there, they offer a completely re-think user experience designed specifically for tablets. Thinking about how users can interact with applications and how users should be able to multi-task in a tablet. They come with something that is far better IMHO from usability point of view than iOS or Android, but they miss applications and polish of the OS… and you say that Microsoft is doing a bad job?

            Don’t make fun of me, every platform needs 1 or 2 years to polish, you can’t polish things that only your development team use, and even if they came with the perfect platform they still need developers around the world to get used to their system and tools, so applications can improve and mature as well as the platform does.

            • NeelyCam
            • 7 years ago

            Market success (if that matters to you) is easier for the first disruptive entrant. First copycat has to either make the experience better or cheaper to gain ground. There is a natural preference towards an alternative for the “mainstream king” with a certain segment of the market, helping the first copycat get there.

            Once there are two well established players, it becomes much more difficult for the third entrant. The product has to be significantly better, cheaper, or compelling in some other way (like leveraging brand name(s) or user base from different, related markets) – the two earlier entrants have already split the market.

            That’s where Microsoft is now… it’s not an easy battle by any means.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            I never said it’s easy, sure they will need to keep trying for several years before people starts to accept WP and Windows RT, and I know first to market usually is more important than make it better. My point is, that people is complaining about Windows RT, that’s normal, but seems that most of people doesn’t understand that any platform needs to mature in order to achieve their true potential. You can’t buy a Surface RT at launch and say it’s not good after a week because there is some problems that were not ironed before release or there is some apps missing. You already should know before buying that Windows RT is new to market and you need to be patient about apps and bugs, let the software mature for some months. That’s why many people do not buy Windows till SP1 or do not update to new iOS versions till some of their friends already tested it. Many iOS users experience heavy slow downs after updating and learn to not update at least it’s required or someone else already did and they can see it works flawless.

            • cjava2
            • 7 years ago

            Not reading anything you typed in that text wall, but I made everything up in my posts.

            Troll mode: successful.

    • Meadows
    • 7 years ago

    I understand the problem of the ego but Mr Ballmer, make like Apple and apologise when you fail. Or at least tell the truth.

    • l33t-g4m3r
    • 7 years ago

    It’s positive thinking bandwagon marketing. Never admit failure. MS has gone full RDF.

      • MadManOriginal
      • 7 years ago

      Never go full RDF!

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        you’re talking to l33t.

          • l33t-g4m3r
          • 7 years ago

          You are a complete hypocrite with no credibility:
          [quote<]it's true. mac's really are the computers to get.[/quote<] [quote<]ownership of files IS THE MOST ANNOYING THING ABOUT 8.[/quote<]

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            what’s your point?
            I have context?
            there is something that annoys me about 8? i can see that even though i like it, it’s not perfect. we call this being in reality. It’s my fav os, and far from a failure at this point, but that doesn’t mean it does EVERYTHING perfect. it’s true. ownership of files has gotten worse since xp. i don’t disagree with that.

            Mac’s do have the best hardware on a traditional laptop. we’re starting to see some more interesting PC’s coming, but at this point, touch screens aside (which i do want on my next mobile pc) they’re the ones to get. i’m not sure what you think is wrong about that. It’s not a secret i have little love for osx. i prefer linux and windows. if i had $ i’d buy a retina mac and put windows on it. I don’t, and i want a touch screen, but if those 2 things weren’t true, and they’re not for a lot of people, mac’s DO have the best laptops. I should say i’m not a fan of the pro.

    • travbrad
    • 7 years ago

    I won’t be surprised if a lot of people do adopt Windows 8, considering it will come with almost every new PC from now on. That’s how most people get their OS, not by installing/upgrading it themselves. 4 million early adopters is nice, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the number of “mainstream” users out there. It also helped that Win8 was the cheapest Windows upgrade ever.

    The real sticking point is more likely to be the enterprise, and they don’t tend to upgrade until an OS has been out for many years. It’s unlikely that they are going to choose linux/mac over Win8 though, so even if enterprises migrate to Win7 instead it’s still money for Microsoft.

    • sschaem
    • 7 years ago

    Did they ALSO have to make a version of Apple signature RDF ?!

    There is 1.2 billion PC and 68 million mac base.

    So if Windows8 was as successful as Mountain Lion, Microsoft would have had 52 million upgrades at launch.

    We can say that Metro is 50 time less desirable to the PC community as an upgrade then Mountain Lion was to OSX users…

    And calling windows8 an ‘upgrade’ for the 670 million windows7 users is just incorrect.

      • MadManOriginal
      • 7 years ago

      I’d be willing to bet that the proportion of Windows machines that get OS upgrades is much smaller than the proportion of Macs. ex: PCs still running XP. To determine whether Win8 has a high adoption rate compared to OS X you’d have to normalize between the platforms for this typical adoption rate.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        DON’T USE SCIENCE

          • MadManOriginal
          • 7 years ago

          Yeah, it’s not PCs that are dead, it’s critical thinking and logic!

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            i’ll be dead soon if this logistics stuff doesn’t get in my head before my test tomorrow. idk how much more of it i can take

            • HallsMint
            • 7 years ago

            All you need to know about logistics is what UPS said in their commercial. Just watch that commercial a few times before you go to bed and you’ll be fine

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            I got a SOLID 70% FOR SURE!!!

        • Arag0n
        • 7 years ago

        And then, you have to account for the fact that not a very small number of those OSX machines are used for development and apple requires you to update OSX in order to develop for newer iOS API’s or OSX apps….

        And also, you need to think that OSX users are hipsters that want to be as fashionable as possible but Windows users usually are ok with their old stuff as long as it works… Windows users are more likely to renew Windows while updating machine or doing a clean install.

          • Deanjo
          • 7 years ago

          [quote<] apple requires you to update OSX in order to develop for newer iOS API's or OSX apps....[/quote<] Ummm ya, they required you to update ONCE (10.7 or higher for development iOS 6). Every other time was to update your XCode which is free. I'm still doing iOS (including iOS 6)development on a Mac Mini Late 2006 running Lion (10.7.5).

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            I don’t know you, but I’m still pissed because I had to buy a Mac mini to develop iOS apps…. For the same price I paid for the Mini I could have a awesome gaming system…. Now I have no budget to buy new computer in the next 3 years at least and I’ll be stuck with this shitty thing because Apple doesn’t want you to use OSX in non-apple hardware without doing tricky workarounds.

            I don’t care if you don’t need to update from 10.7, the fact that I had to buy an specific piece of hardware will not change and that’s far more expensive than any update.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            I picked up the Mac Mini for $100+$20 cpu upgrade and $600 will hardly buy you an “awesome gaming system”. Of course that Mac Mini has paid for itself many times over with the revenue from the iOS apps.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            I don’t care how much revenue I get from iOS apps in long term. What I do know is that I had to buy a $499 mac mini with upgraded RAM, CPU and GPU with a total final price near $899 in order to develop apps for iOS. Sure it may be a profitable investment over time, but now answer me this question:

            Why should I not be able to use a Virtual Machine to run OSX for development proposes?

            Why I can use Android development tools on Windows, OSX and Linux?

            Why I can grab ANY hardware and ANY OS and setup Windows for development or use ANY Virtual Machine software to run the tools I need to develop for WP/Win8?

            Just because I can make profitable an investment it doesn’t changes the fact that Apple is pushing me to spend money on their hardware no matter what. Just think about it, no matter how shitty OSX or wonderful OSX is, as long as people has iPhones and iPads and developers need OSX to develop, there will be at least 1 OSX device for every developer out there. Given that there are several million developers that is several million devices. I’m sure at least 5 million of the 68 million OSX devices are bought for development. There doesn’t have to be 5 million developers, remember that you have a mac mini in home, then you may need to buy a laptop at some point and you end buying something that you can use to work too and then, if you work in a company besides developing by yourself your company also buys a Macbook/iMac for you. Then you need several iPad’s, several iPhones…. So I would not be surprised that there is at least 20 million devices sold from Apple to developers between iOS and OSX.

            Now, if at least, AT LEAST! the apple developer yearly fee was free or their hardware was not overpriced (Apple said not long ago that they have a 40% margin)…. but nop, no way. Apple is like a goverment. They know they create the iOS ecosystem and they want to get as much money from the developers that feed the ecosystem with the games and apps that make the ecosystem great as they can. I will never support a company that knows that developers and applications are the ones that make their products usable and attractive for final users but however, decides to get as much money as possible from them.

            Don’t get me wrong, apple does good products, but they try to get as much money as possible from everyone. Google and Microsoft do a much better job to support developers and help them do their job better, that’s a fact.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]What I do know is that I had to buy a $499 mac mini with upgraded RAM, CPU and GPU with a total final price near $899 in order to develop apps for iOS. [/quote<] That is pure BS. Any base Mac Mini from 2007 up is able to develop iOS apps just fine. The upgrades were your choice and have virtually no effect on the ability to develop for iOS.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            I do not consider the upgrade from 4 to 8Gb as an option… maybe OSX 10.7 does fine with less memory, but 10.8.2 eats memory for breakfast and the CPU/GPU upgrade were a must to have a machine that can do something else than develop apps, sure it has no effect to development itself, but I won’t buy a machine that the only available GPU is a crappy Intel HD3000… so as much as upgrades were optional, upgrades were also required to have a good expirience…. still I’m happy I pulled the plug before the mac mini renewal and made unable to buy a mini with an AMD GPU….

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]I do not consider the upgrade from 4 to 8Gb as an option... maybe OSX 10.7 does fine with less memory, but 10.8.2 eats memory for breakfast [/quote<] Balderdash, the memory footprint for 10.8.2 is barely any larger then 10.7 or 10.6 for that matter. [quote<]and the CPU/GPU upgrade were a must to have a machine that can do something else than develop apps, sure it has no effect to development itself, but I won't buy a machine that the only available GPU is a crappy Intel HD3000... so as much as upgrades were optional, upgrades were also required to have a good expirience.... still I'm happy I pulled the plug before the mac mini renewal and made unable to buy a mini with an AMD GPU....[/quote<] So you spent extra for other purposes other then iOS development. I understand that, your comment however does not state that: [quote<]What I do know is that I had to buy a $499 mac mini with upgraded RAM, CPU and GPU with a total final price near $899[b<] in order to develop apps for iOS.[/b<][/quote<] Which again is total BS as the $499 mini is more then enough to develop for any iOS device of any iOS version. You were completely misleading the readers in to believing that the cost of getting into iOS development is much higher then it actually is.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            First, you should know that there is no $499 mac mini anymore, the cheapest starts at $599 now.
            [url<]http://www.apple.com/mac-mini/[/url<] and last generation Mac Mini was also at least $599. Second, I'm not day dreaming, with 4Gb of RAM your Mac Mini is at 1.5Gb memory usage at startup. XCode uses 0.5Gb and Safari with several tabs will consume another 1Gb memory, total 3Gb. Try to have another browser, some image edition software or anything besides your very basic development tools and you hit a memory limit problem very often. I use to hit that memory size limit often in my previous company MacBook just using XCode, Safari and Eclipse at the same time, that's why I choose to buy 8Gb. I also needed 8Gb to be able to run a Windows Virtual Machine when the need arise. Third, as I told you before, if I buy a Mac Mini I expect to use it for something else than development... I expect a general propose machine at that ($599+$100 = $699). Current Mac Mini generation is better than previous. Currently I might have bought the $599+$100 instead of the $799+$100, but NO WAY I'm going to buy the previous generation $599 version with a crappy Intel HD3000 as general propose machine. I could have bought a $599+$100 for a total of $699 with a Core i3 instead of i5 and without an AMD 7630M GPU.... but then, I would need to buy a desktop to at least be able to play some games once every while and have a fast and snappy machine for daily normal use. So please, stop kidding me. You have some kind of Stockholm syndrome. You are required to purchase things that costs more than it should, with totally no aid from Apple and you still need to pay subscriptions to develop and publish apps, and still, you will defend it as a normal thing to do while Apple is the only company that does such a thing. You get money from Apple, I may get money too soon, but it doesn't changes the fact that the money I and you get developing for Apple ecosystem is the result of our work. Apple already benefits from a healthy ecosystem that helps them sell more devices to users, how can you defend they also make money from us, the developers that create and sustain that healthy ecosystem? Apple is not selling the iPad and iPhone at loss so it needs to recover the investment from app development and app distribution, last time I check that was not the case....

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            $600 can buy an econobox, an extremely more gamer friendly system than current Mac mini.

            $900, the minimum I consider you can actually pay for a good developing system can buy you the sweetspot setup minus the ssd and the extra audio….

            I think you suffer some kind of Stockholm syndrome and you just accept that apple besides being able to request $99 per year as developer fee, they are also allow to require you to buy an overpriced computer… And you have totally no choice to buy your system of choice. The only thing you can do is at best, buy an overpriced MacBook to develop and a desktop for gaming so at least you don’t buy two desktops….. Or two laptops….. Do you really believe that’s a fair treatment to developers of your platform?

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]I think you suffer some kind of Stockholm syndrome and you just accept that apple besides being able to request $99 per year as developer fee,[/quote<] I also pay an annual fee for a MSDN subscription that is far higher then Apples. For a MSDN subscription to publish on the Windows store it is $1,199.00 with a $799 renewal your point? [url<]http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/buy.aspx[/url<]

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            you don’t need an 1200$ MSDN subscription to make an app.. Don’t be dumb. You’re comparing apples (lol!!!!!) to oranges. MSDN comes with an ass ton of other software as well.

            • Deanjo
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]you don't need an 1200$ MSDN subscription to make an app.. Don't be dumb. You're comparing apples (lol!!!!!) to oranges. MSDN comes with an ass ton of other software as well.[/quote<] As does the Apple developer programs. To get the same level of support you have to get an MSDN subscription.

            • sweatshopking
            • 7 years ago

            you’re honestly suggesting that the 1200$ msdn subscription is equal to the 99$ apple one?

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            With MSND subscription you get all Microsoft software ever made for free with several cdkeys… you can setup a full team of people working with a single MSDN subscription…. I don’t know if he is kidding or he is just plain stupid… the value of MSDN subscription is far better than the 99$ of Apple iOS developer center….

            • bcronce
            • 7 years ago

            One license is supposed to go to one person, but my MSDN only costs $400/year and gets me access to all software except Office and VS ultimate and includes support from MS devels and some free online courses.

            I don’t just get 10 cd-keys per product, but I get 10 cd-keys per year and they don’t expire. I also get an enterprise key, for each product, that has unlimited use.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            If anything you prove that the value of MSDN subscription is much much much higher than what Deanjo says at a much lower price…. I had the subscription for just some months, I had no time to check all you point and I never paid for it, so I didn’t really now the retail yearly price.

            • Arag0n
            • 7 years ago

            You got to be kidding or be really stupid. I also have a MSDN subscription for free till 2015 at least. I had 2 years free WP developer subscription and I got a free Windows Store developer account for one year. Why? because Microsoft know developers are important and they know you need to test the waters before investing yourself in a new platform. It’s not the same to ask people to invest 2000$ in hardware to develop apps for your platform without knowing the ROI, than give everything for free and after some years ask developers if they are interested to keep paying the fees and develop for your platform. Microsoft barriers for indie developers are just non-existant, while Apple makes money from every indie developer that does not succeed to make more money than invested. Google makes totally nothing to promote developing but at least, they don’t limit your options.

            Edit: Oh! And I also had a free 2 years developer account for XBOX Indie market. Just before you say “Microsoft does that because they are the underdog in mobile”, is Microsoft the underdog in consoles too?

      • Geistbar
      • 7 years ago

      This only makes sense if you assume that every other aspect of those markets is identical. Which I would hope you know is false. A lot of those windows machines won’t be able to run win8 acceptably. A lot of them will be owned by people that hate updating any software, ever, for any reason (I have known far too many of these people). A lot of them are used in businesses that only upgrade software on set cycles after sufficient testing. A lot more of them will be owned by people with more modest incomes than for macs. A lot of them will be used exclusively for productivity and not be able to afford the downtime… You get the picture.

      You could argue (probably fairly) that MS would have needed a larger early adoption rate for it to actually be impressive, but you can’t just treat the ratios the same at all and retain credibility. Personally, I think that considering the amount of hatred win8 got pre-release from the enthusiast crowd (perhaps the people that are most likely to do an upgrade) that the number seems OK but not great.

      EDIT: Also worth noting that only a smaller subset of Windows computers will qualify for the upgrade edition of Win8. There’s no way that all “1.2 billion” Windows PCs are eligible for an upgrade licence, which makes the pool of computers at a comparable price point to Mountain Lion significantly smaller.

        • NeelyCam
        • 7 years ago

        Physicists… always with the facts and logic, trying to steer others away from [b<]BIAS AND PURE EMOTION[/b<]

    • hippie69
    • 7 years ago

    Wonder how many of the 4 million upgrades were from the $15 deal that spread around the internet.

    • Damage
    • 7 years ago

    “The level of embrace from enthusiasts is very, very high.”

    Like, up around the neck at least.

      • Voldenuit
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Like, up around the neck at least.[/quote<] But from which end???

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