These are the mining machines monopolizing high-end Radeons

Demand from the cryptocurrency mining scene seems to be messing with the market for high-end Radeon graphics cards. First, members of the R9 280 and 290 families were in short supply. The cards eventually became more widely available, but only at premium prices. In fact, just last week, the R9 290X hit $900 on Newegg, up substantially from its suggested list price of $549.

High-end Radeons based on AMD’s GCN architecture are particularly adept at doing the math required to generate cryptocurrencies, and the mining community appears to be buying cards in droves. One needs to look no further than ThinkComputers’ gallery of insane mining machines to spot evidence of the apparent trend. The article doesn’t include system specifications for the various rigs, but I see a lot of Radeons, especially in the more ambitious configs.

Some of the systems are put together rather nicely, as well. I particularly like this machine, which appears to be dedicated to Dogecoin mining.

Source: Imgur

Such Radeon. So spaghetti.

On the one hand, I feel for gamers shopping for high-end Radeon cards. The latest models are great deals at their suggested retail prices, but their value proposition is tenuous with today’s street stickers. AMD is in an awkward position, too. The firm appears to be selling plenty of cards, just not to the core audience it originally targeted.

Part of me thinks that’s pretty awesome, though. Thumbing through ThinkComputers’ gallery reveals a lot of crazy-looking machines that have clearly been put together by PC enthusiasts. The demand associated with these systems may be inflating the prices of some Radeons, and the bottom could very well fall out on the whole cryptocurrency scene. However, it’s still very cool to see the horsepower and flexibility of modern PC hardware harnessed on this kind of scale—and to generate virtual money. Too bad there’s no indication of how much profit the various machines have generated for their owners.

Comments closed
    • ronch
    • 6 years ago

    [url=http://www.extremetech.com/internet/177283-bitcoin-value-plummets-as-mt-gox-disappears-with-375-million-in-coins<]Bitcoin Value Plummets.[/url<] Yep, just a bubble ready to pop.

    • Deanjo
    • 6 years ago

    Tsk Tsk…..

    [url<]http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/02/bitcoins-mt-gox-implodes/[/url<]

    • Horshu
    • 6 years ago

    Can’t use these things for something more altruistic, like protein folding?

      • UnfriendlyFire
      • 6 years ago

      Who’s going to pay for the GPUs and the electrical bill?

    • kamikaziechameleon
    • 6 years ago

    I had heard a long time ago that mining wasn’t profitable… I’d love to hear what they are netting.

    Annoyingly enough there are a glut of digi coin standards out there, pretty much defeating the purpose I think of such a currency

      • NovusBogus
      • 6 years ago

      Profitability depends heavily on if/when you sell your stash, BTC style cryptocurrency is deflationary as well as volatile and the real winners are those who held onto it until the peak (1200 BTC/45 LTC) and unloaded everything then. Once everything stabilizes it will indeed be very interesting to find out who got actual cash money indabank, and how much.

    • WhatMeWorry
    • 6 years ago

    You couldn’t play computer games with these set ups, could your?

      • Chrispy_
      • 6 years ago

      Sure you could.

      Miners typically use cheap Celeron or Pentium processors, but these are just normal PC’s.

      And yes, the $50 dual-core Pentium is going to hold back all those graphics cards somewhat, but dont’ forget that $50 on the desktop buy you two Ivy (or Haswell) cores running at 3.3GHz without HT. Some “gaming laptops” commanding $2000 pricetags come with 2.5GHz Ivy (or Haswell) dual-cores. You get HT too but that rarely makes much difference in games, and when it does, it’s not usually more than about 30%.

    • jstern
    • 6 years ago

    In many cases it’s more profitable to buy coins rather than buying mining hardware, and then have the coins go up in price, and make a lot more that way. A new coin to keep an eye on is Nem Coin, because it’s not out yet, and it already has an insanely huge community behind it. So you should keep an eye out on it and invest when it comes out, for the price will probably go up.

    ASICs are a scam. If it’s meant to make you a profit, then why doesn’t the ASIC companies not just mine with it? They do, and since it has no resale value like GPUs, they just release it when it will make them more money to sell it than to keep mining with it.

    They make you pre order the device, pay thousands of dollars months in advance. It’s just a lot more profitable to buy coins now that they are cheap, than to wait 3 months, have the difficulty immediately go up, and break even in a year. It’s such a scam. In that time, the coins that you bought instead of pre ordering could have significantly risen in price.

      • jihadjoe
      • 6 years ago

      Shh. They just happen to have a very thorough “testing period” for each device sold.

      • superjawes
      • 6 years ago

      [quote<]ASICs are a scam. If it's meant to make you a profit, then why doesn't the ASIC companies not just mine with it?[/quote<] Woah there. I can see the rationale behind mining with your own developed ASICs, however... The company making the ASICs has an obligation to turn a profit. They are investing engineering and manufacturing to create a product, and while they [i<]could[/i<] argue for their own mining operation, any results would be in a speculative currency. That is, the 'coins mined could not be used to (directly) pay the bills, and the value of said coins would fluctuate (in some cases dramatically). Now having already spent the capital to develop and manufacture the ASICs, it would be quite risky to also mine with them, especially when they can just sell them, effectively passing on the risk to someone willing to take it. Basically, it is a much safer business move to develop the product people want and sell it to them. It's just a matter of risk management.

        • jstern
        • 6 years ago

        It’s a scam because return on investment is close to zero. Using a touch screen so I will stop typing short.

          • superjawes
          • 6 years ago

          I am not familiar with the returns for miners, so I’m not really commenting on that.

          I just wanted to make it clear why the company producing the ASICs would sell them instead of mining.

            • jstern
            • 6 years ago

            As time passes and new coins are mined it becomes harder and harder to mine new ones for whatever hardware a person was using. My point is that since ASIC companies don’t release their ASICs until months after a person pre ordered them, and at no set times, since they are aiming for a profit, they probably are mining with the ASICs and then release them to the people who pre ordered them right when it will give the company the best profit to sell them vs mining with them. (I realize my writing is a mess at the moment)

            Since the ASICs have no resale value, as a company who’s about making profits, they release the ASICs that are soon to be obsolete right before the difficulty to mine becomes too high.

            That’s why I say it’s a scam. Not because it’s an actual scam, the type where you send them money and then they disappear, but because they sell it to people who think they’re going to make a profit, but instead are just going to be stuck with a soon to be obsolete peace of hardware that they won’t be able to sell. That’s why I say it’s better to to spend that pre order money on GPU, because at least a person can re sell them and actually get some of that invested money back. In addition to the money made mining.

            Imagine paying $10,000 for an Asic, and then having to spend over a year to make that money back. In the mean time you could have invested that $10,000 a year earlier and probably made a profit. Or you could have bought $10,000 of mining hardware, and at least be able to sell it for a decent return, vs no resale for the ASIC.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            Depends on the coin. DOGE gets harder and harder over time for example, but once DOGE reaches 100 Billion coins, it will have a constant payout rate for the rest of time.

            Bitcoin is the one built as a giant pyramid scheme, with a hard cap on 21 Million Coins. But do remember, all the “rules” of cryptocoins change from coin to coin. IMO, I find DOGE to be more rational since they agree that a hard-cap on the number of coins is counterproductive.

            In particular, they recognize the importance of minting new coins constantly to encourage miners to stay a part of the mining pool.

            • jstern
            • 6 years ago

            The fact that Bitcoin is limited is what attracts a lot of people towards it. And Bitcoin will continue to be mined until the year 2140 or so. We all are going to be long dead.

            • jstern
            • 6 years ago

            I see that I got to thumbs down, but not sure why. I just checked and there will be 21 million Bitcoins mined by the year 2140. And about the inflation, I’m actually for a little bit inflation towards a coin, but whenever I bring it up in a Bitcoin forum, the vast majority are passionately against it, and say that it’s what makes Bitcoin attractive, because the limited supply makes it more valuable.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            Naturally. BTC’s rules attract people who are attracted to rules / law behind BTC. Deflationary currency, etc. etc.

            DOGE however, has demonstrated that an inflationary coin can become successful however. Furthermore, it is winning on the far more important metric: transactions / day.

            • jstern
            • 6 years ago

            I’m pro a little bit of inflation, but don’t let your belief, ideology blind you into thinking that what you want to be true is the truth. There’s reality, and people rationalizing things to make a reality for them.

            I know I’m sounding rude, but what I see from you is a person rationalizing reality to better fit what they want to be true, versus trying to look at things objectively.

            If most people involved in Crypto currency prefer for there not to be inflation, why do you take such offense to it and try to be clever with words by saying, Bitcoins rules attract people attracted to Bitcoins. It’s just such an obnoxious way of dismissing something and not really look into things that goes against your current mindset. 99% of the coins out there have a limit, the forum that I was talking about is about Cryptocurrencies, 100s of coins, and 99% of all the coins out there have a limit. Most people involve with Dogecoin probably assume it has a cap. Yet you come with that Bitcoin rules attract Bitcoin people. I just found it obnoxious because of the subject we’re talking about, but because I realize that I’m talking to someone with a fanboy mentality. Where it’s actually not about considering points.

            You know, I give up because I know I’m just talking with someone with a fanboy mentality. And despite the fact that I mine Dogecoins and have 2,000,000 of them, any meaningless little point that might sound negative to you you will defend.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            Erm… I haven’t given thumbs down on anyone fyi. I just enjoy a good discussion.

            BTC attracts people who like BTC. Similarly, DOGE attracts people who like DOGE. Its a tautology, but its the truth. The BTC community will innately have more pro-deflation people in it than the DOGE community, which is shaping up to be pro-inflation.

            I’d assume DOGE holders prefer coins built on scrypt, lower transaction times, and all the other features of DOGE as well. These are the reasons people _pick_ a cryptocoin to support after all. Personally, the coin I support will focus less on increasing the price (which is important to miners and speculators… but not to me), and focus more on increasing transaction rates, ease of use, etc. etc.

            DOGE is not quite there yet, but the philosophy behind the movement attracts me far more than BTC.

            Now BTC may prove to be the fully successful coin. DOGE may die tomorrow. I know, these are the risks associated with these experimental coins. So I’m not actually putting much money down on any of them (a _real_ investment has a good chance of making money. IE: Bonds, Stocks, Real Estate, CDs, etc. etc.)

            Instead, I buy DOGE / BTC so that I can experiment and play with them. Cryptocoins will be the future, but I don’t know which cryptocoin will win people over.

    • aggies11
    • 6 years ago

    Good for AMD short-term, not so much long term…

    While it’s nice to sell all their cards, if they are not being used for gaming, and driving prices higher so that actual gamers end up going with alternate (Nvidia) cards, this ultimately could cost AMD valuable marketshare in the GPU gaming market. Marketshare that might be hard to make up longterm.

    Initially I thought that eventually the Cryptocurrency bubble would pop, and the market would be flooded with lots of used AMD product (driving prices back to the reasonable), however it doesn’t look like this is going to happen anytime soon.

    There are enough new crypto currencies popping up, and enough new cash being injected into the markets, that there is still money to be made mining coins, with no end in the forsee-able site. (“Get rich” style gold rush mentality).

    Very strange times indeed.

    • slowriot
    • 6 years ago

    If you’re looking for something interesting to listen to and learn more about Bitcoin beyond mining then I highly recommend checking out this Joe Rogan podcast with Andreas Antonopoulos. If you’re already familiar with Bitcoin/cryptocurrencies it may be a bit slow for awhile but I’m sure you’ll find some interesting information. As well, if want to know why Bitcoin could be beneficial to society then its worth the full listen.

    [url<]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cexawnOlR8[/url<] You can skip to about 10 minutes in to avoid the ads.

    • Yeats
    • 6 years ago

    I’m looking forward to when miners start mixing in sculpture with their operations. Such Lovecraftian possibilities!

      • NovusBogus
      • 6 years ago

      I’ve been meaning to design and print a cool enclosure for a Block Erupter, but it’s effort and I’m lazy.

    • fhohj
    • 6 years ago

    ugh it’s hideous.

    it doesn’t surprise this is the thing that is posing such a challenge to getting a gaming pc.

    it’s clearly the end boss. or judging by the number tendrils, the sub-boss. jeez if this the sub-boss what could be the end boss

    • Xenolith
    • 6 years ago

    With every boom, there is a bust.

    • hubick
    • 6 years ago

    AMD has had to provide 10-20 *million* chips for next-gen consoles (sounds like 10 million consoles have been sold already, with launches in more regions imminent).

    I can believe there are a bunch of people into mining, but I have trouble believing it’s not a number like ten to a hundred thousand or something, not so many that their demand for GPU’s causes this shortage instead of the millions needed for consoles.

      • Farting Bob
      • 6 years ago

      These are very high end chips that are only made in limited quantites (because of their physical size they are harder to produce when running at the rated frequencies), and production of the lower end, far far cheaper to produce chips in the PS4 and Xbone has no major influence on 290X’s.

      AMD can (and probably has) increased production of these chips to meet higher than expected demand, but because of the nature of bitcoin miners whenever more are made and retailers sell them at a lower (closer to RRP) price, they buy more of them, which leads to retailers upping prices again.

      It probably wont end until either something supplants the 290 as the preferred mining card or bitcoin crashes and it stops being worth it to make massive GPU miner systems.

    • ChangWang
    • 6 years ago

    As someone that was looking to buy a R9 290 with a decent cooler, I’m kinda miffed.

    That said, I wonder what the ROI for these setups are. Hardware and recurring electricity costs have to be through the roof. All for a chance at an attempt to get “free” money? Not to mention the fact that this whole thing could flop any day now. Or that they could get robbed by they Coin Wallet holder?

    I can’t help but feel like these guys would have better luck in Vegas……

    • Longsdivision
    • 6 years ago

    The Matrix, v.01

    • UnfriendlyFire
    • 6 years ago

    I recall someone mentioning to me that they were in favor of subsidizing electricity prices.

    I later learned that he was one of the first folks to build GPU-computing rigs for bit-coin mining.

    • albundy
    • 6 years ago

    how many other coins are out there now? time to create a new virtual currency. i shall call it $hitCoin!

      • bowman
      • 6 years ago

      buttcoin

        • albundy
        • 6 years ago

        they gotta come out of something, right?

      • blastdoor
      • 6 years ago

      I’m clearly living a sheltered life — I had no idea that there was anything other than bitcoin.

      It’s funny how stupid smart people can be when they wander outside of their narrow area of expertise.

      We now know what a stupid currency designed by smart computer nerds looks like. I wonder what a CPU designed by economists would look like? Maybe it would be infinitely fast because it would always just assume the answer…

        • superjawes
        • 6 years ago

        And it would preiodically crash, requiring a massive bailout from the US Government…

    • Krogoth
    • 6 years ago

    Wow

    Such bubble

    Many tears

    Little resale value

      • uni-mitation
      • 6 years ago

      HUSH!

      I am waiting with glee the day that this whole house of cards(you should watch it on netflix, spacey is awesome as always) will crumble in one swift fall of the guillotine.

      I am not an economics major, but I think it is pretty obvious that the whole flaw of this crypto craze is using it as a commodity, investment, or meta-currency. The system itself is pretty impervious to the manipulation of an entity to devalue the coin. It is a centralized system whereas the “central bank” is a peer-to-peer system that does the work of verifying and protecting the currency.

      The weakness in this system is the exchanges. They without a doubt are working as banks without the regulation, and without the insurance that goes to protect them from bank runs, and to protect the consumer. see Mt.Gox. So, imagine what happens when all of those masses with their hard won crypto currency decide to cash in on their favorite exchange because of panic, and the exchange refuses to honor their withdrawals?

      As for currency, none of the crypto coins are being used for currency. The definition of currency goes along the lines of “you can pay your taxes with it, pay the grocer at the little street corner, withdraw money from the atm at your bank, get paid for work, buy a CD, put a retirement contribution, and can buy bonds with it!”

      I for once have the popcorn ready to watch the end of this saga!

        • kuraegomon
        • 6 years ago

        Your last point is somewhat inaccurate. There are already many services (and goods, though less so) that can be purchased with BitCoin. The other crypto-currencies, not so much.

        Also, I’ll point out to you that banking insurance is a 20th-century invention. Banking in the West is less than 400 years old. For most of recorded human history financial exchanges were far more primitive – and had fewer protections – than the current cryptocurrency exchanges. Civilization seems to have advanced regardless. There are just a few more bumps along the way πŸ˜‰

        In all likelihood, the miners deploying the equipment in the linked article have already more than made their investment back. The next wave of entrants are the ones who will likely lose their shirts. And there will still eventually be one or more widespread cryptocurrencies. It’s just less likely that any of the current entrants will make the cut.

          • uni-mitation
          • 6 years ago

          I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Bitcoin is not a currency. This is not a debate of opinions, but of facts. The definition of what a currency is made very explicit.

            • kuraegomon
            • 6 years ago

            Wikipedia: [url<]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency[/url<] Note especially: "A much more general use of the word currency is anything that is used in any circumstances, as a medium of exchange. In this use, "currency" is a synonym for the concept of money." I picked Wikipedia as one readily accessible source. Try Googling "define: currency". You'll find many hits. Most of them are far more inline with the above that with your specious "definition". I don't care what _your_ definition is. I care what _generally_ accepted definitions are. When using those BitCoin meets those criteria easily. Learn how to conduct an _adult_ argument. You may now proceed to throw an e-tantrum, and have the last word. I've already had the better word πŸ˜‰

            • uni-mitation
            • 6 years ago

            You seem to use currency in very broad terms. What services and products can you buy with your bitcoin? Can you get paid for your work with bitcoin? No. When I said bitcoin is not a currency, indeed it is not a currency. It might grow to become one in the future. If I could predict the future that would be a different argument.

            The problem with your definition is that pretty much anything can be currency. We know by experience that is not true. You can bribe cops with donuts yet that doesn’t make donuts currency. It is not a widely accepted means to pay for services and products. It is not a long term stable system for storing your wealth(donuts go bad really fast).

            So, all that is backing your argument that bitcoin is a currency is the fact that “a few” people are using it to buy some things with it. Yet, they still have to exchange those bitcoins into dollars for them to pay uncle sam for taxes, to pay their employees with dollars…You get my point?

            If you felt insulted by my reply, please don’t be. I told you why I disagreed with you straight to the point. Yet, it doesn’t mean we have to uncivil to each other?

            Have a good day, I valued the exchange.

            • kuraegomon
            • 6 years ago

            Google “What can I buy with BitCoin”:

            – [url<]http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/how-to-spend-bitcoin-in-the-real-world/story-fnay3ubk-1226831626914#[/url<] - [url<]https://spendbitcoins.ca/places/[/url<] You've chosen to attach all sorts of requirements to your definition of currency that do _not_ match general usage. Did you bother to _read_ the first wikipedia link? Your definition most closely matches "Fiat currency": [url<]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency[/url<] - i.e. one of many classes of currency. In your opinion, my definition is too broad. In my opinion, your definition - in the context of this conversation - is too narrow. One of us has consistently provided examples and attribution to support their argument. Crypto-currencies are one class of alternative currency. They are currency. Currency as defined in dictionaries. Currency as defined by most of the articles currently debating their merits and flaws. Every article that I've found that is still debating whether BitCoin is "actually" a currency, is doing the same thing that you are: conflating currency as a general concept with fiat currency. Here's a good example: [url<]http://dailyreckoning.com/is-bitcoin-a-currency-or-not/[/url<] As to the question of civility, the tone of your previous reply left no room to allow that you might be wrong. 5 minutes of research will - at the very least - indicate that your definition of terms is suspect. Your follow-up is somewhat more reasonable. If it will make you happy: BitCoin is not a fiat currency. No argument. But the original argument, before I did all the work to define your terms properly for you? BitCoin is a currency. And that is a fact.

            • uni-mitation
            • 6 years ago

            Indeed BitCoin might fall under a type of currency. One that is not widely accepted as Fiat Currency, and that doesn’t have the backing of Government. BitCoin might prove to be useful just as cigarettes are currency in prisons. It doesn’t mean and I don’t imply that it is not a worthwhile pursuit, but I hold a healthy skepticism about the whole craze. Right now people are using these instruments more like investments, and not as mediums for the stable storage of wealth and the purchasing of goods and services. I am glad that people are becoming aware of them, but I am also alarmed that they are being taken for fools.

            This brings me to the original point that I was making before I was derailed by my poor definition of a currency. I do apologize for that. There is nothing more satisfying in an exchange than actually learning a bit more than one used to. And in fact, I make it a rule of thumb that when someone seems to be sure of himself about everything then I tend to think they are the people that know the least. So, if you though I was arrogant or full of it, then it wasn’t my intention. It takes away from the exchange. It makes me look like a hypocrite at first impression, yet I trust you are not swayed by them.

            Anyways, my original point was that BitCoin even though as a medium might be classified as a currency, it is not being used widely for that purpose but more of an investment. Now with the springing of new crypto coins the miners have moved to greener pastures, but it is my point that time will tell whether indeed BitCoin will slowly but surely start the metamorphosis to a proper currency, albeit not one with the backing of a government.

            I am not against BitCoin being used for its intended purpose, which I think would do great as a meta-currency.

            Thank you for the exchange.

            • libradude
            • 6 years ago

            “What services and products can you buy with your bitcoin?”

            TigerDirect is accepting Bitcoins – actually their main page has a banner on the side advertising $20 off of $100 purchases or more when you pay with Bitcoins.

            Why would they do this?

            (I’m snipping an excellent forum post from an article on MaximumPC entitled Bitcoin Mining 101 that was very informational – that said, his explanation certainly makes sense)

            1. Almost non-existent transaction fees

            This is a huge plus for business, where credit card companies take anywhere from 2-5% in fees for each purchase. I worked for a local computer shop where we made maybe 3-4% on parts we sold in the store. Now take away the credit card companies cut and you’re left with almost nothing (I would say a good 80% of customer purchases were with credit cards). Say a small store has 15000 in credit card sales in a week. Thats $300 taken in fees that week, 15600 that year, and thats on a very small scale. Think about how much Amazon, Newegg, or Tiger Direct does in sales…the amount they pay in fees is huge. Most bitcoin transactions I’ve ever seen are 7 cents or less to send, no matter the amount. This alone is a big reason for retailers to accept payment in Bitcoin…it’s only a win for them.

            *And before anybody makes the argument about volitility, almost every retailer that accepts Bitcoin uses a payment processor such as BitPay that instantly converts Bitcoins to the curency of their choice at the time of sale, so market fluctuations play no part in it.

            2. Security.
            When you swipe a card, do you know how much information you’re giving? Name, billing address, full card number. Sure, it’s encrypted and stored on “secure” servers, but is it really safe? Just ask Target about that. The only information stored in the Bitcoin blockchain is the sending address, receiving address, and amount. Also, retailers dont have to worry about chargebacks as each transaction is final and cannot be reversed (anybody ever get burned by paypal?).

            3. Instantaneous payments.
            As it stands currently, anytime you want to send a payment somewhere, wether it’s to a store you’re purchasing something from, sending money to a friend in another state, or transfering money to family overseas, you’re going to be waiting at least a few days for it to clear the bank and be “final.” Bitcoin transfers are instantaneous and cannot be held up by a third party. And, if we look back at the fees part of the post, wire transfers are expensive and time consuming (usually at least $30 and a few days to clear). I’ve sent bitcoins from Japan (where MTGox exchange is located) to my house here in the states and it takes just seconds.

          • kuraegomon
          • 6 years ago

          Correction: Banking is the West is more like 700 years old. Usually I’m more accurate when shooting from the hip in discussions πŸ™

          [url<]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking[/url<]

            • uni-mitation
            • 6 years ago

            The reason why we have the protections, and the regulation of the banking system is for many reasons in the history of banking. These crypto exchanges are operating as banks except without any protections to the consumer.

            If those people that are serious about having their crypto coin be an actual currency then they will have to lay the foundation with certain protections to the consumer. I think that is only fair minimum. Do you disagree?

            • kuraegomon
            • 6 years ago

            And those will evolve, as the market demands them. There will be messiness – see MtGox’s most recent problem. Considering the scale of the potential paradigm shift represented by crypto-currencies, that’s really unavoidable.

            • uni-mitation
            • 6 years ago

            The exchanges are the weakest chain in the grand scheme of things. Until things are sorted out, and some level of stability is introduced by some form of regulatory mechanism I think they will continue to be what they are now: banks without any deposit insurance that will leave depositors at risk when panics caused by the market happen.

            The second point that I want to make related to this is government hostility to crypto currencies. The central banks of the world have a vested and biased interest in controlling taxation and monetary policy by printing more money and debasing their currencies. No country in their right mind I would think would give up such power and control to a crypto currency. What happens if the operation of those crypto exchanges are outlawed? This is why it is in the best interest of these exchanges to take a proactive approach, and rebrand themselves as a stable currency and not something that is used to launder money and what not. Because those that want to destroy this system are looking for the perfect excuse to demonize and brand them as such in order to ban these exchanges.

            • OneArmedScissor
            • 6 years ago

            The missing protection is no futures or options market. That is how everything is insured and stabilized, not just currencies.

            But that would make crypto-currencies controlled by crony entities like the CFTC.

            The CFTC just attempted to appoint Blythe Masters, who was head of JP Morgan’s commodities division when it was busted for manipulating California energy prices, Enron style. She went on CNBC just days before their $6 billion “London whale” loss became public, to spread lies such as, “We have no stake in whether prices rise or decline,” and was investigated for stating similar lies while under oath in court.

            JP Morgan is a primary dealer bank at the very top of the Federal Reserve System. It received over $400 billion in secret, interest free “loans” between 2007 and 2010 – equal to the [i<]entire[/i<] Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP). The CEO, Jamie Dimon, sits on the Federal Reserve Bank of New York board. They have more employees at central banks throughout the world than I could possibly count. So if these people are put in charge of crypto-currencies, which were designed for the sole purpose of competing with this very system, then what is the point? You imply crypto-currencies need "regulation," which means "to keep regular." Prices wildly flying up and down obviously are not regular, but that is only the case [i<]because[/i<] of the cartelized regulatory system. It is the problem, not the solution.

          • JustAnEngineer
          • 6 years ago

          [quote=”kuraegomon”<] There are already many services (and goods, though less so) that can be purchased with BitCoin. The other crypto-currencies, not so much. [/quote<] Those services would include murder-for-hire, human trafficking, extortion, etc. and the goods would include stolen credit cards, narcotics, child slaves, etc.? Silk Road is the clear example that BitCoin doesn't have a reason to exist other than criminal money laundering.

      • UnfriendlyFire
      • 6 years ago

      Anyone having plans of checking Craigslist and eBay when the bubble burst to get dual or tripe 290X setups at bargain basement prices?

        • Vaughn
        • 6 years ago

        why would you want to buy radeon’s that have been mining 24/7?

        You don’t know if the cards were taken care of properly.

        Good luck I wouldn’t touch any of them no matter how cheap.

      • dragontamer5788
      • 6 years ago

      Ironic, because DOGEcoin is one of the best cryptocoins to get into right now. It is the cheapest coin, it is the easiest coin, and it is the funnest coin.

      [url<]http://dogecoin.com/[/url<]

    • jdaven
    • 6 years ago

    Looks like bodies hooked up to some kind of ‘matrix’ to create a fantasy world that covers up the truth…

    …That they are not being used to play games.

    • Unknown-Error
    • 6 years ago

    [b<]** Unknown-Error Faints **[/b<]

    • GrimDanfango
    • 6 years ago

    I don’t understand this. From what I’ve read about bitcoin mining, it appears that while AMD cards are indeed often about 2-3x better than nVidia cards for this task… dedicated ASICs are something on the order of 100-1000x faster than that, and the only even vaguely plausibly way of turning a profit.

    Am I missing something, or would you not have to run a rig like this for decades before you even stood to reclaim the cost of the cards?

      • dragontamer5788
      • 6 years ago

      ASICs don’t exist yet for Litecoin or DOGEcoin. So R9 290X is the most cost-effective way to mine currencies at the moment.

      When SCrypt ASICs come out, things will change. But at the moment, they don’t exist. So… R9 290x is the best solution.

        • mph_Ragnarok
        • 6 years ago

        There probably won’t be any ASICs for scrypt… I thought that was the point of scrypt.

          • brucethemoose
          • 6 years ago

          Some ASICs are already out, though they’re still under heavy development.

          Scrypt is more complex than SHA256, but it’s certainly doable on a well-designed ASIC.

          • AlvinTheNerd
          • 6 years ago

          That was the point of scrypt, but it was done somewhat poorly. Scrypts prevention mechanism is based on memory requirements. Scrypt wasn’t suppose to work on GPU either, but as GPU’s have become more CPU like, it was successfully ported.

          In the long run, memory requirements aren’t going to break ASIC, just limit them. In fact, they are already out. Its just they are 1/10 the performance of a GPU for 1/30 the power requirements and only 1/2 the cost. In addition, it looks like first gen models are unreliable and most die early. Its not a blast out of the water like it was with SHA256, but it will eat away as they are already more power efficient.

          The interesting part are projects like Vertcoin, Quark, and Primecoin. Prime is CPU based, with GPU code proving to be less efficient. Vertcoin can change the memory requirement in its scrypt algorithm to break ASIC ability on command and only force GPU users to upgrade their mining software.

          • dragontamer5788
          • 6 years ago

          There can ALWAYS be ASICs. An ASIC is an application-specific integrated circuit. If you get a computer engineer to create a special computer that can do NOTHING but do SCrypt, it will beat your general purpose CPU (or GPGPU). Its a simple matter of fact.

          SHA256 was designed to make ASICs very easy. BTC uses SHA256, so ASICs are ~700x faster than a GPU. (That is 70,000% faster)

          SCrypt however, forces “specialty” circuits to carry lots of RAM. Its a RAM constrained hashing circuit. Still, if you remove all the other “parts” of a computer chip, it has been shown that SCrypt ASICs are approaching ~2000% improvements. Not as much as BTC / SHA256, but still significant.

          ASICs will [b<]always[/b<] win. They just cost a fortune to make (there are very few people who understand transistor theory + computer architecture at a level that they can build custom computer chips). ASICs cost millions of dollars to make, but only cost pennies to mass produce. NVidia Kepler, AMD GCN, Bulldozer, Piledriver... these are the names of ASICs and were built with the same technology that these SCrypt ASICs will be built off of.

        • GrimDanfango
        • 6 years ago

        Ah, I wasn’t even aware there *were* other cryptocurrencies besides Bitcoin.

        Is there really any significant point to spreading focus around a bunch of competing digital currencies? Surely focusing on one would stand more chance of stabilizing it and turning it into a viable and dependable international standard than everyone trying to come up with their own niche designer currency?

          • dragontamer5788
          • 6 years ago

          Its a free market. People are free to create their own coins. Whether or not they have purpose is of no concern to anyone else. In particular, Litecoin (LTC) tries to solve problems that were discovered in the BTC protocol… and DOGE builds further on top of LTC. The creation of newer and newer crypto-coins is the cycle of innovation.

          Eventually, one will become the defacto standard. Hell, BTC itself has been undergoing transformations and reformations as other coins experiment with ideas. (Multi-Sig has been proposed as an extension to Bitcoin to solve the Escrow problem, now that Transaction Malleability has shaken the trust in centralized escrow services)

          Some problems inherent to BTC can only be solved by moving to another coin however. (BTC minimum confirmation time will be ~10 minutes forever. Only by switching to DOGE (or some other faster coin) can we get a confirmation time of 1 minute)

          Until things settle down… it will be wild roller coaster ride. One that will be most interesting for me to watch.

            • GrimDanfango
            • 6 years ago

            Interesting information, thanks for explaining some of it.

            I had a similar thought about one ending up the defacto standard, it would just be nicer if people speculating on ones that end up proving dead-ends didn’t get burnt in the process, but I suppose that’s just the nature of something this new. It wouldn’t be speculation if it was a sure thing πŸ™‚
            My point wasn’t that people shouldn’t be free to create competing standards, just that it would be a shame if that division of focus ended up hurting the entire ecosystem. I’m intrigued to see what a currency without government or corporate control would look like.

            It will indeed be highly interesting to see how it pans out. It’d just be nice to have the magical foresight to buy a Β£1000 worth of the winner now, and watch it grow πŸ˜›

      • Bensam123
      • 6 years ago

      ASICs are currently for sha-256, not scrypt. Dogecoin and LTC use scrypt, which operates differently.

        • jihadjoe
        • 6 years ago

        ASICs for scrypt have been developed, and should be coming soon.

        [url<]https://alpha-t.net/product/scrypt-asic-miner/[/url<] I think trying to "lock out" ASICs by increasing the RAM requirement is a bad idea in the long run. We'll end up with newegg gouging RAM prices like they're doing Radeons now.

      • fhohj
      • 6 years ago

      It concerns me what litecoin and other scrypt coins, if they don’t devalue quick enough, or increase in enough in process difficulty, could mean for memory prices in addition to just gpu price.

    • DPete27
    • 6 years ago

    Just think of all the 1+KW power supplies that must be selling also.

      • BestJinjo
      • 6 years ago

      Yup. I bought the SeaSonic Platinum 1000W at Newegg for $179.99 after MIR 2 years ago. It’s now $379.99. The high-end PSU manufacturers are loving crypto-currencies too. Boom for profits.

      [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151105[/url<]

    • cygnus1
    • 6 years ago

    Does anybody know what those cards are that are piping the PCIe over a cable up to the video cards? Thunderbolt adapters?

      • brucethemoose
      • 6 years ago

      PCIe riser cables. They aren’t active adapters, just passive cables with good EMI shielding.

        • cygnus1
        • 6 years ago

        That’s awesome that doing that is even possible. I had no idea. Definitely is what makes these creative miner assemblies possible.

      • SecretSquirrel
      • 6 years ago

      They are PCIe “extender” cards. They have a little paddle card that plugs into a PCIe slot and route one PCIe lane to a SATA connector. On the other end it has a PCIe slot that is physical x16 and electrically x1. It allows you to plug a GPU into every PCIe slot on the motherboard instead of only the x16 slots.

      –SS

        • cygnus1
        • 6 years ago

        Ahh, so a single PCIe lane is enough bandwidth for the miner’s to fully exploit those video cards?

          • keltor
          • 6 years ago

          It is, actually some website did a test using the highest end cards and only 1 lane and found it hurt it, but only in surprising strange ways. This is why for the most part PCIe 1/2/3 don’t really make a difference.

          • shaurz
          • 6 years ago

          Mining doesn’t need a lot of memory bandwidth (hardly any actually), just a shit ton of calculation.

            • DaveBaumann
            • 6 years ago

            Scrypt mining (which is what these GPU’s are doing) requires a lot of local bandwidth to operate (hence why it is more difficult to create dedicated ASIC’s for the task, though they will come); this is why GPU’s became good at the task because they have reasonable sizes of RAM and lots of local bandwidth (in conjunction to the large integer bitshift ops on the ASIC). However, it is reasonably self contained on the GPU so it does not require a lot of host to GPU traffic, or CPU cycles. Most decicated miners will be buying the cheapest CPU they can operate on a motherboard with the largest number of PCIe slots and even reducing the CPU core count down to the bare minimum to save a little more power.

      • just brew it!
      • 6 years ago

      PCIe is actually a serial point-to-point link, not a true bus like “classic” PCI. They’re probably just routing the raw signals up the cable.

    • ronch
    • 6 years ago

    I think they’re actually kind of crude, but there’s just no other way to cram that many Radeons to work on a consumer-grade motherboard especially if you wanna cool each of them well enough.

      • Prestige Worldwide
      • 6 years ago

      I could do 3 in my X79 rig, 5 if I used those derpy riser cards. But then it wouldn’t be a practical quintuple-crossfire 2400hz 1337 ownage gaming machine.

      Seems to me I would have to have 2 clock profiles if I would use it for both mining and gaming….. one for the lowest possible CPU clock I could run to minimize power costs, and another for my 4.4 GHz overclock that would likely be required to get the most out of 2-3 290x cards.

      I do live in arguably the cheapest city in terms of electricity prices in of North America, Montreal. It seems to me that it would be an ideal dogecoin and litecoin mining location. I have been considering dogewhoring for a couple of months now but just couldn’t justify buying a 290x at such an inflated price. Now they’re even more inflated and I still can’t be arsed.

    • bittermann
    • 6 years ago

    It’s awesome yet such a waste of electricity. People just want free money while sitting on their ass doing nothing…don’t get me wrong I get the appeal for that but its just plain wrong.

      • ronch
      • 6 years ago

      Everyone just wants to print their own money. Crazy. Without proper regulation it’s just a bubble ready to pop.

        • spuppy
        • 6 years ago

        You guys both sound like people who are regretting not getting into cryptos when their nerdier friends told them about it 2 years ago, and are now billionaires.

          • DPete27
          • 6 years ago

          I was suspicious of the bubble burst when the R9’s launched. If I had known the bubble would still be around today, I would have bought a few. I would have almost been in the black by now (something like 120 days for each GPU to recoup it’s cost from what I’ve read).

          • bittermann
          • 6 years ago

          Umm…no. I have a good job that pays well and I invest in actual stocks that are doing pretty well. Although I would love free money I don’t feel the need to spend thousands of dollars up front and waste a ton of electricity trying to recoup that money and “possibly” make more, or not…no regrets here young man.

            • spuppy
            • 6 years ago

            It’s not “free money”. These miners are what keeps the network going, and they are rewarded for doing so. When you invest in all these “actual” stocks that are doing pretty well and sell them for a profit or receive dividends, do you consider that “free money”? You’re just “sitting on your ass doing nothing” after all. That is “just plain wrong”

            If you don’t want to “waste” electricity (not sure how using electricity for actual work is considered a “waste” but OK) then just buy the currency itself if you are interested in some more “free money”.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            um…WTF is your point? Investing in real companies that make real products that hope to make a profit and in return I get dividends…vs mining for $$. huh? Also, electricity for actual work, what work? If crypto-coins didn’t exist you wouldn’t need to use any extra electricity and nothing, absolutely nothing would be lost. Except maybe paranoid people and drug dealers would have to find another way to spend/launder money.

            • spuppy
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]hope to make a profit and in return I get dividends...vs mining for $$. huh? [/quote<] Bitcoin is a "real product", just a new one. And people who mine hope to make a profit with it. Saying it's not real is like saying email isn't real because it's not on a piece of paper. [quote<]Also, electricity for actual work, what work?[/quote<] Mining. Mining for gold requires you to spend resources to dig it out of the earth. Mining for cryptos requires you to spend resources to dig it out of the blockchain as it is being formed. [quote<] If crypto-coins didn't exist you wouldn't need to use any extra electricity and nothing, absolutely nothing would be lost.[/quote<] If crypto coins didn't exist, you wouldn't need to use the electricity. This is correct. However they do exist. I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here. [quote<]paranoid people and drug dealers woulds have to find another way to spend/launder money.[/quote<] I'm not sure if my suspicions of you being another one of those angry people who feel like they missed out and want everyone else to fail, but you definitely have no clue what you are talking about.

            • September
            • 6 years ago

            So what product is made from the mined coins? Are we creating something mathematically valuable? Cracking encryption? Finding keys to use for encryption?

            I’m just not sure what the durable good is here – how is this helping society?

            • superjawes
            • 6 years ago

            The biggest appeal, I think, is that it is a currency that is not issued by a government. It is unregulated, it is not country-specific, and it’s digital, which seems to strike a chord in a digital age. It could [i<]potentially[/i<] help society by providing a border-free, market controlled currency... However, there are disadvantages to such a currency, but we've discussed that in detail before.

            • cygnus1
            • 6 years ago

            The mining process is what verifies transactions of the currency. without mining, the currency wouldn’t be verifiably exchangeable.

            • spuppy
            • 6 years ago

            The coins themselves have value if people are willing to trade for them. Right now the top reasons for using them are convenience and privacy. I plan to keep much of my coins, as I think they will be worth a lot more in the near future.

            However I have bought quite a few things with them. For one, I want to contribute to the market and give it some value as a currency. It is also way more convenient and reliable than using a credit card or paypal, for both me and the seller.

            • dabster
            • 6 years ago

            A decentralized public ledger that allows you to move money around easily, possibly in exchange for goods or services.

            • Deanjo
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]Mining. Mining for gold requires you to spend resources to dig it out of the earth. Mining for cryptos requires you to spend resources to dig it out of the blockchain as it is being formed.[/quote<] One produces a product you can utilize for other purposes. The other gives you NOTHING in hard product. You can do the EXACT same thing except without using virtually any energy and banks have doing it for years. It is called interest. Considering that mining crypto currency is directly linear to the processing power on hand all that has to be done is: Invest money that would be spent otherwise on hardware X time X rate of return = current value. That takes zero energy to produce. There is absolutely no reason why "mining" even has to be done.

            • spuppy
            • 6 years ago

            Mining is what runs the network. Without it, you would need some sort of centralized system, and would have to trust that whoever runs it is on the up and up and hope they can keep it running forever. Instead, everything is public and verifiable on the blockchain.

            It is also a public ledger if you want to use it that way, which has some very intriguing potential.

            • Deanjo
            • 6 years ago

            So run just run a sys uptime network app the process of “mining” is not needed at all. Hell they could run a custom version of bittorrent for the same results again without the energy consumption.

            • dabster
            • 6 years ago

            Mining is a method of distribution. There are several crypto currencies other than bitcoin that operate without mining. There are others that have a mix of mining and some other scheme. Distribution always comes down to matter of fairness and greed. There has to be some method of distribution, and there is no fair way.This will always put people off, but if enough people think something has value, then it stops mattering to a degree. In some ways greed drives adoption, through mining and investing.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Ah, suspicions from some basement dwelling nerd about my successes and jealousy’s. And finally the last straw argument about me not having a clue. Yeah, you and others having lots of money really upsets me. 😐

            PS: I can see where this is going so I’m done with you.

            • superjawes
            • 6 years ago

            Let me point out that stocks are actually ownership in a company granted for investing in said company. Let’s use GM for example.

            Basically, your cash goes to GM, and GM uses your cash for operations. This could be paying its workforce, retooling an assembly plant, or buying a smaller company to make parts.

            In return, GM gives you ownership in the company and will either pay dividends (which come from GM’s eventual profit) or you can sell that ownership later. Assuming GM is more profitable than it was before, selling that ownership results in a net gain.

            When it comes to investment, this is a popular choice because you can figure out risk vs. return, and even though we like to refer to the stock market as volitile, you can predict the general long-term trends.

            • anubis44
            • 6 years ago

            Stocks are a piece of a registered, publically traded corporation, but your cash does not go to the corporation after the initial public offering, it goes to whoever you buy the shares from.

            Right now, the dividend on many companies’ shares are extremely pathetic. Yield on market value for GM common shares (as of just now) is 3.29% return on your money. Inflation is currently 1.6%, so you’re actually getting 3.29%-1.6%=1.69%! 1.69% is so pathetic, it would take 41.36 years to double your money: [url<]http://www.moneychimp.com/features/rule72.htm.[/url<] Who the hell wants to invest in that? I'm actually a stock market investor of many years, and I try to make money through capital gains (like buying AMD shares at $1.80 and holding them until it hits my price target of ~$5.00-$8.00). That's the only way to REALLY make money on the stock market, but there's tremendous risk involved, and years of patience required. I can fully understand the appeal of cryptocurrencies, but I also agree that the computations should be providing real benefits to society, like helping to cure diseases or helping to answer 'grand challenges' of science: [url<]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Challenges.[/url<]

          • superjawes
          • 6 years ago

          The only “billionaires” crytocurrencies have created are the ones who are still storing that cash as Bitcoin (or Litecoin or Dogecoin or Krogothcoin). That means they aren’t really billionaires unless they can actually use it. The problem is that using it essentially devalues it.

          Also, bittermann’s point was that it is a waste of electricity, and I’m inclined to agree. As more ‘coins are found, finding new ones becomes more difficult. As they become more difficult to find, more electricity is used during the mining proces, and that electricity isn’t free.

          As someone estimated here, mining adds $100-150 to the electric bill, which means you need to be able to mine at least $100 in cryptocurrency per month just to break even on operating expenses.

          So in the end, the only people benefitting from cryptos are the early adopters…not the “2 years ago” adopters, but the people who started mining in the first couple years of bitcoin and anyone who has started a new currency since.

            • September
            • 6 years ago

            The electricity is “free” to kids in their parents basement…until dad starts to figure out what is going on.

            • cygnus1
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<] As more 'coins are found, finding new ones becomes more difficult. As they become more difficult to find, more electricity is used during the mining proces, and that electricity isn't free. [/quote<] That isn't how it works at all. It's not the quantity of mined coins that increase difficulty. The network adjusts the difficulty based on how quickly coins are mined, which is a proxy for the amount of compute resources that's been tasked with mining the coins. In other words, the more people mining, the more difficult it becomes. The idea is to keep the rate of coin production at a somewhat steady pace.

            • drjay
            • 6 years ago

            yea, you are right to spend $100 a month to yield $1500 profit each month is a waste. God you are an idiot!! Please know what you are talking about before you make a stupid comment about how early adopters are the only ones making money.

            I spend $3 worth of electricity a day to make $50 profit each day. Call it a scam but in the end I am making money sitting on my ass while you miss the boat.

            • indeego
            • 6 years ago

            $50 profit now, potentially worthless later. The thing about bitcoin is its value is only important when you acquire it and when you release it, and only one of those you have control of the price over.

            • albundy
            • 6 years ago

            wait, thats all you make in a day? ROFLMAO! thats like 1.25 hours of work for me at the office and i’m not even management. hell, thats not even enough to pay for a weeks worth of gas. you best get a real job.

          • ronch
          • 6 years ago

          They’re now billionaires? Billionaires in terms of these digital currencies? Nope. Not quite the same, bud. These are almost like having billions worth of play money.

            • spuppy
            • 6 years ago

            So when Overstock say they have had sales of $1 million USD worth of bitcoin, that is just “play money”? Or when various adult sites say that bitcoin already accounts for 10% of their income, that’s just “play money”

            You better tell these people quick!

            • NeelyCam
            • 6 years ago

            Million != billion

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Ah…currency of the underworld…yeah this will turn out well.

          • f0d
          • 6 years ago

          i cant believe the hate for cryptocurrencys around here
          im glad i got into bitcoins years ago when the 5850s were good at it, i was able to buy a load of hardware paid for by bitcoins

          5850s and 5870s (although i sold my 5850’s for 5870s – not bitcoined them)
          6970
          my htpc case
          other tidbits of computer hardware like powersupplys and hard drives
          used some coins to buy games and to buy more virtual money in a game called ACR (which isnt that good now but i liked it back then)

          all paid for by mining coins – everyone said to me back then that its all a scam etc etc
          well i wasnt scammed out of anything, including the extra electricity i used i easily paid for my hardware and even more stuff

          do i care about mining doing nothing productive? nope (mining actually processes the transaction network or something – i still dont fully understand it nor care, it does do something though)

          you all can hate it but since i came out on top for mining part time (about 12 hours a day) im happy i did it

          too bad NVIDIA cards arnt very good miners (i have 670sli) or i would be trying out litecoins and dogecoins (and im not prepared to buy ati cards atm due to lack of funds)

            • superjawes
            • 6 years ago

            “Hate” isn’t the proper word. “Skepticism” is more accurate, and many would call it “healthy skepticism.”

            Do cryptocurrencies have value right now? Yes.
            Do they have an appeal over traditional currencies? Yes.
            Are they a safe investment? That is not certain.
            Can they replace traditional currencies? Probably not.

            See, many of us are skeptical because there are people going to crazy extents to cash in on the crypto-craze. Even if I were to get involved in mining, I would be extremely cautious and ready for failure. That’s because these are, by nature, fairly volitile. Both value and usefullness depend on how many people are using them, and if that drops out, then you’re left with nothing.

            So when someone comes in saying “ya’ll are just jealous you didn’t get on this meal ticket cryto program sooner!” expect many sighs and eye rolls.

            • uni-mitation
            • 6 years ago

            Count me as one of those healthy skeptics! There are many shams and cons in this world. There are many snake salesmen selling you oils for your hard earned money! The funny thing is that many of those that know what they are getting into this whole crypto craze know what is the eventual end point. The part that is funny is the cognitive dissonance, and the rationalization that others will loose their shirts, that him or her will not! It is like they know when this whole crypto craze will end! News flash: you will be one those that loose their shirts along with the countless others that though the same!

            Those that are getting in are paying for those early adopters that came before him. There is no product being made, no service being provided. The bubble will burst. This is not up to debate. If human economic history, and human nature is not any greater evidence of what is to come then you are naive as those that will loose their shirts!

        • One Sick Puppy
        • 6 years ago

        Regulation is exactly what ruins the bubble and turns it into a sloppy puddle. Regulation is nothing more than bureaucrats using government force to expropriate wealth and does nothing but slow economies to a crawl. Instead of private citizens and companies getting rich of of their own work and products, governement administrators and managers of regulation, take that wealth and keep it for themselves.

        There’s nothing wrong with investing a large amount of money in these high end cards and “sitting on their ass” waiting for it to pay off. It’s high risk, and high investment.

        And it’s certainly a far more productive activity than playing Call of Duty.

          • sweatshopking
          • 6 years ago

          Hahaha you’re crazy.

      • puppetworx
      • 6 years ago

      It’s simply gambling where the casino is the power companies, no worse.

      • faramir
      • 6 years ago

      The concept of capital earning you money while you “sit on your ass and do nothing” is not something new.

      What is new though is that there are ***so many*** imbeciles out there who actually put value [in legal tender and/or goods and services] on what amounts to nothing more than a proof of permanently wasted resources. You see, any resources wasted “mining” these things could have been used for something beneficial to humanity [such as cancer research etc.], rather than to just benefit few individuals and/or some government agency [which is using some people’s retardedness and greed as a free distributed supercomputer the purchase of which they could never justify].

      • anotherengineer
      • 6 years ago

      If you won the lotto and put that huge sum (5 mil+) in the bank and they gave you 10% interest, then you can get even way more money for sitting on your butt doing nothing and it doesn’t even cost you anything in electricity!! I know, it’s just plain wrong too.

        • bittermann
        • 6 years ago

        No, what’s wrong is watching the price of AMD cards skyrocket their way to twice the suggested retail price while these easy money coiners waste electricity resources. Don’t give a crap about sitting on your butt if that’s your life’s dream.

        • jss21382
        • 6 years ago

        What bank is giving 10% interest?

          • JustAnEngineer
          • 6 years ago

          Cast your eyes here:
          [url<]http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EGSPC%2BInteractive#symbol=%5Egspc;range=5y;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=;[/url<]

      • slowriot
      • 6 years ago

      Free money? These people are not getting free money. The mining setups seen in the news post cost thousands of dollars to assemble and then several hundred to keep running. This fits the classic “You must spend money to make money” scenario.

      Plain wrong? How is mining any worse a use of electricity than playing video games? If anything cryptocurrency mining offers you to potentially get involved a paradigm shifting currency. I personally think it’s extremely important that people give real consideration to how this technology could impact the way the entire world spends money. It could level the playing field.

      Honestly, I don’t understand the irrational dislike of cryptocurrencies on TR. Everyone seems to be focused solely on the mining aspect. Giving little to not consideration how important a decentralized currency could be for the world.

        • bittermann
        • 6 years ago

        I don’t play video games 24/7 365 days a year. There isn’t and won’t be any paradigm shift in anything. Could legitimate currency go all digital sure as its just number pushing. This isn’t the same as its a how can I get rich sitting on my ass. You don’t need to mine and waste that kind of electricity in today’s world to transfer cash electronically. I don’t know why I bother.

          • slowriot
          • 6 years ago

          What has you so angry? Are you seriously this upset over the thought of people wasting resources? Do you stay up all night because supercars are still produced? Do you stay up all night knowing the World of Warcraft servers are running 247/7/365? Does non-functional clothing anger you?

          [quote<]I don't play video games 24/7 365 days a year.[/quote<] But there are game servers running constantly, millions of them in fact. There are people gaming at all hours, millions in fact. You can't possibly quantify the amount of resources that are wasted in the pursuit of entirely frivolous things, be it things we do with computers or not. At worst cryptocurrencies are just another example. [quote<]Could legitimate currency go all digital sure as its just number pushing.[/quote<] The most important aspect of Bitcoin (I'm using it as my example. It's the best known by myself and at large.) is not being entirely digital. Its that Bitcoin is entirely decentralized. There is no single entity, government or otherwise, that controls it. This is also why "mining" is so important. Mining isn't just the virtual equivalent of digging for gold. Mining is the trust mechanism of the Bitcoin network. All transactions performed with Bitcoin are public, they're part of the global transaction log or "block chain." Mining is the name for essentially maintaining the block chain and for maintaining it you're given a reward. Frankly, you've yet to give a valid point against Bitcoin/cryptocurrencies. You seem far more interested in insulting people who support something you don't understand. Something you don't understand due to your self imposed ignorance.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Frankly you people haven’t given us normal folk one valid reason these should exist other that it being decentralized so the truly paranoid or law breakers feel safe. When all I see in the news is exchanges getting hacked, bitcoins stolen, accounts frozen indefinitely or the next bitcoin stealing trojan was released in the wild the last thing it inspires is trust don’t you think?

            As far as understanding goes when you miners start telling me “I don’t have a clue and or am self imposed ignorant” then I’m going to push back. Seems like there is a lot of insulting going on. Time for you to grow up.

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            You know what the favored currency for breaking the law is? Its the US dollar. All you see on the news is about Bitcoin exchanges being hacked? Oh really? Because I’ve heard about those too, but I also managed to hear about multi-billion dollar companies losing money out of thin air! I’ve heard about governments doing that! I’ve heard about multi-billion dollar companies having security breaches and losing millions of customers information. I’ve heard about multi-billion dollar companies defrauding their customers and getting away with it! All of this extremely illegal and devastating activities being funded with the US dollar!

            Humans commit crime, they will use whatever is the most conventiant for them to use. The same reasons why Bitcoin may be appealing could be used for bad acts. This goes for all currencies. You keep bringing how Bitcoin can be used for bad deeds, well no duh man, so can any form of cash.

            [quote<]As far as understanding goes when you miners start telling me "I don't have a clue and or am self imposed ignorant" then I'm going to push back. Seems like there is a lot of insulting going on. Time for you to grow up.[/quote<] I don't mine. There's no value in it for me. I am solely interested in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies as a replacement for traditional currency. Because Bitcoin has virtually no transaction fee. Because it can be transmitted instantly. Because it isn't controlled by a government or banking system which has continuously broken laws and unfairly gamed the system. Those are huge, paradigm shifting differences. Ones that will allow many people to innovate and flourish. You are clearly ignorant. It's not an insult, it is fact. You have kept going with this argument despite you having demonstrated obvious and significant gaps in knowledge on how Bitcoin or other cyrptocurrencies work. Worse you have also demonstrated a severe lack in awareness on the current problems with traditional currencies.

            • Yeats
            • 6 years ago

            Bitcoin is not a panacea. It will eventually be as corrupt as anything else.

            [url<]http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/19/5425220/protest-at-mt-gox-bitcoin-exchange-in-tokyo[/url<]

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            This is a problem with Mt Gox, not with Bitcoin. It’s inherent to cash. If you give your $20 bill to someone and they take off running then are you going to blame the Federal Reserve? No, you’re going to be angry you trusted that person. Hence, this issue is the fault of Mt Gox. The person you shouldn’t have trusted.

            It’s extremely unfortunate Mt Gox was/is not properly operated.

            [url<]https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=418[/url<]

            • NovusBogus
            • 6 years ago

            A very valid point, but I would argue that overall corruption will decrease when there are alternatives to the current USD/EUR commerce duopoly. Untouchable institutions inherently breed corruption no matter who or what they are, because there isn’t any reason not to.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Wow…what wall of text to defend such a worthless scheme. You haven’t demonstrated any tangible benefits outside of the current currencies. Only dreams and wishes of what it could become.”Because it can be transmitted instantly”. LOL…talk about no clue! I can click on paypal and send money instantly as well. And I never said there aren’t flaws with other current currencies. They all have them. Writing a long tantrum post doesn’t help validate anything you say.

            I can see now your one of those paranoid anti government types that thinks they know whats best for everyone else because big gubbament is bad and watching us all. News flash, their not after everyone! Maybe its time you find another outlet to fight against the man…get some rest, sounds like you need it

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            You don’t understand the difference between you being credited for money and the actual transfer of cash.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Actually I do and if you think you can transfer bitcoins to another account and pull that cash out on the other end 30 seconds later I think your the one who doesn’t understand.

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            Because I’d like to actually try to educate you….

            I’m talking about your Paypal description. You are not instantly given the cash. You are given a credit for it. Paypal has the ability to revoke the transfer and for sometimes shockingly long times after. Numerous eBay retailers could share their horror stories with you.

            This is true for virtually every transaction of traditional currencies online. You have to understand you’re dealing with a representation of the money, not the real thing. And it’s controlled by third parties who may or may not act in your best interest.

            With Bitcoin once the exchange has occurred you do truly have the coin. The entire network knows you have it too. It’s the same as exchanging physical cash. Once I’ve given it to you, you have it. Except now we can do this over the Internet and there’s no barriers to me or you taking part in it.

            You can already buy real, physical products with Bitcoin. The options are only going to expand.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            I already know that….the point, which is lost on you as usual is nothing is as “instant” as you make it out to be. You keep changing the target. I’m talking about being able to access the money instantly like you inferred. No “take backsies” because of a dispute is really not a justification as once the bitcoin transaction is complete the person on one end could be screwed if its a dishonest one. Now they don’t have any recourse whatsoever do they? How is that beneficial to everyone? There’s a little education for you as well.

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]I already know that....the point, which is lost on you as usual is nothing is as "instant" as you make it out to be. You keep changing the target. I'm talking about being able to access the money instantly like you inferred.[/quote<] You're talking about exchanging Bitcoin for US dollars. This is not what I'm talking about. You can buy real goods, right now with Bitcoin. No need to transfer it to US dollars. The products you can buy this way are only going to expand. Further reducing the need for exchanging to US dollars. [quote<]No "take backsies" because of a dispute is really not a justification as once the bitcoin transaction is complete the person on one end could be screwed if its a dishonest one. Now they don't have any recourse whatsoever do they? How is that beneficial to everyone? There's a little education for you as well.[/quote<] 1. Paypal may revoke money from you for reason's you know are not valid. For instance, you have sold a graphics card to someone via a forum. They send you the money via Paypal and you take the packed card to the post office to ship it and inform the buyer its been shipped. A few hours later you get an email saying the other party has disputed your recent Paypal transaction and the money has been removed from your account and you're frozen from taking other transactions. You could very easily lose that dispute even if you have information like forum PMs or a shipping number. I've had it happen and thousands of others who use Paypal have had it happen. Even then if you win the dispute and receive the money you could have potentially lost a number of sales due to your account being frozen. That period can last days at times. 2. Services can be built around Bitcoin that could offer the "protection" you're wanting. For instance, a third party service could be involved which holds the good or Bitcoins until both parties are satisfied. What's important is that this is an optional service. Unlike with traditional currencies right now which require you to work with a third party to facilitate this transaction.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            1. With the current currency system I don’t have to transfer anything to US dollars. I just buy and be done. Guess what I can also buy real items right now without bitcoins and that whole transfer hassle.

            2. You take worst case examples from one or two companies and translate that to the whole current currency system is fubard? Why don’t we look at the total number of transactions from all companies that don’t have any issues and put that scenario into perspective….doesn’t look so bad now does it?

            3. “Services can be built around Bitcoin”. Who, what and will it be safe, secure and trust-able? The short history of crypto coins and exchanges says no.

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            [quote<]1. With the current currency system I don't have to transfer anything to US dollars. I just buy and be done. Guess what I can also buy real items right now without bitcoins and that whole transfer hassle.[/quote<] Yes, Bitcoin is new and accepted directly by few businesses. This however is changing and will continue to do so. Its a new currency, it would be impossible for it to not have these hurdles. [quote<]2. You take worst case examples from one or two companies and translate that to the whole current currency system is fubard? Why don't we look at the total number of transactions from all companies that don't have any issues and put that scenario into perspective....doesn't look so bad now does it?[/quote<] I refuted your specific example. You were the first one to mention Paypal. I pointed out that you were wrong, the money is not instantly transferred, and provided an example of issues that can arise because of this. There are many more potential issues. The majority of your "arguments" have been about how cryptocurrencies can be used for nefarious activities and now you're upset I pointed out how the traditional systems can be too? The majority of transactions with both the US dollar and Bitcoin are for "good" or "neutral" activities. I'm interested in a currency that is flexible. That doesn't require you trust third parties unless you want to. The US dollar doesn't offer this, Bitcoin does. [quote<]3. "Services can be built around Bitcoin". Who, what and will it be safe, secure and trust-able? The short history of crypto coins and exchanges says no.[/quote<] We don't know yet. Only time will tell. Just like we don't know if we can trust current financial services companies. Where were you during 2008 and 2009? But and this hugely important point you can't keep ignoring.... BITCOIN DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO USE THOSE SERVICES. You can write your own wallet software. The only requirement is to interact with the network according to the standard. That's it. The rest is extra that you're personally deciding to use or not.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            Trust?

            * Like, trust against the [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.0<]51% attack[/url<]? * Trust against [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/02/13/silk-road-2-0-hacked-using-bitcoin-bug-all-its-funds-stolen/<]software vulnerabilities[/url<] that withdrawls the entirety of your BTC account? * Trust in anonymity? (Despite [url<]http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-well-deserved-fortune-of-satoshi-nakamoto/[/url<] and [url<]http://fc13.ifca.ai/proc/1-1.pdf)[/url<]

            • slowriot
            • 6 years ago

            First link: I understand Bitcoin could theoretically be vulnerable to the “51% attack” but in reality we’re way past that point. The network would have to see considerable shrinking and at that point the currency would have already been effectively dead. It doesn’t surprise me at all that some random, brand new, no one involved alt-coin was victim to it.

            Second link: Did you read the article you linked? No one withdrew the entirety of a BTC account via a hack. First, Silk Road and similar sites have kept the coins in escrow. Lesson learned? Don’t trust a website whose purpose is to facilitate illegal activity with your money. Second, even if this was the now an example of the transaction malleability bug it would again mean the Silk Road admins shouldn’t have been trusted as they screwed up. It’s a known bug with known fixes.

            Third link: What’s your point here? That someone is trying to figure out who Satoshi Nakamoto is? It’s somewhat interesting but again, I have no clue what point you’re trying to make here.

            Fourth link: Again, what’s your point? (Can’t believe I just read that. The conclusion was “there’s some interesting stuff happening here.”)

            So yeah. I’d like to actually know what you’re trying to get across.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            My point is that “trust” is the cornerstone of every system. Even in BTC, you implicitly trust [b<]somebody[/b<] or [b<]something[/b<]. 1. Do you understand that [url=http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/bitcoins-fatal-flaw-was-nearly-exposed<]GHash.IO[/url<] achieved over 45% of the hash rate? The [b<]only[/b<] reason they stopped, was because GHash.IO itself pulled off at the last minute to prevent catastrophe. 51% attacks against Bitcoin have become possible every time a new ASIC player dramatically raises the bar. Trust Issue #1: You trust the network to be impervious to the 51% attack. 2. Escrow services are absolutely necessary to conduct any transaction in any economy. Silk Road is a black-market Escrow service, but the highest respected, highest trusted escrow service in Bitcoin today. The Escrow Service behind Silk Road turned out to be untrustworthy, and millions of dollars were stolen because of it. Mt. Gox the exchange has also lost significant amounts of BTC to the transaction malleability problem, as well as Bitcrypt. A widespread software vulnerability can lead to widespread hacks of BTC across the entire network. Trust problem #2: You must trust the protocol and software implementation of BTC. It is insufficient to not only trust the service owners... but you must also trust their software to keep your BTC safe. 3 and 4: Anonymity is false in BTC. What was proposed was a methodology of connecting important BTC mining results (in the case of link #3), and interesting block-chain transactions (in the case of link #4) to the [b<]identities[/b<] who own those BTC or were part of those transactions. Trust problem #3: Many BTC users trust BTC to keep their privacy safe. The links I posted is proof that BTC anonymity is a [b<]myth[/b<].

        • fhohj
        • 6 years ago

        it’s pretty doubtful that cryptocurrencies will result in any majorly positive shift in society. they could also be harmful in ways that a fiat currency isn’t whereas a government cannot oversee their state.

        playing a game isn’t wasteful because of fun. and you buy the game. you support artists and technology developers.

        cryptocurrencies are fine, I’m not ready to actually attack them and say they’re a problem, but the electricity used for them isn’t a good thing. double so when it results in a situation like has been going on with gpus at retail.

          • slowriot
          • 6 years ago

          [quote<]it's pretty doubtful that cryptocurrencies will result in any majorly positive shift in society. they could also be harmful in ways that a fiat currency isn't whereas a government cannot oversee their state.[/quote<] Doubtful to who? You? Everyone? I'm not that doubtful at all to be honest. I'm doubtful that Bitcoin or litecoin may be the ultimate form, but decentralized currencies are here to stay. [quote<]playing a game isn't wasteful because of fun.[/quote<] Fun is frivolous. [quote<]and you buy the game. you support artists and technology developers.[/quote<] You can buy games, music, a painting, etc, etc all with Bitcoin. I've personally bought a few albums now using Bitcoin. I need to check in with the musician but I'm fairly certain he converted it to food or shelter, one or the other. [quote<]cryptocurrencies are fine, I'm not ready to actually attack them and say they're a problem, but the electricity used for them isn't a good thing. double so when it results in a situation like has been going on with gpus at retail.[/quote<] If a cryptocurrency can replace traditional forms as the day to day then I'd say those who got in early and stayed with it were extremely important people, whatever their motivations may be.

      • Billstevens
      • 6 years ago

      This is a great social experiment and I hope this is the onset of something revolutionary for currency but the use of power is just socially irresponsible. I suppose if you went and bought a solar rig it wouldn’t be so bad but most electric grids are stressed as is without homes drawing continuous power like this.

        • bthylafh
        • 6 years ago

        Do most areas have graduated power charges? I mean, charge [i<]n[/i<] for the first several kWh, charge more than that for the next several kWh, and so on. Let the utilities charge $lots for residences using a ton of electricity and Adam Smith's your uncle.

      • Bensam123
      • 6 years ago

      Sounds like someone isn’t mining yet…

        • bittermann
        • 6 years ago

        Yup, me and 99.9999% rest of humanity don’t care and have better tings to do with our money. Basically its a US based get rich scheme because its not economical to mine in other countries…go figure huh.

      • NovusBogus
      • 6 years ago

      If I buy ten Radeons to build a mining rig I’m getting free money while sitting on my ass doing nothing. If I buy ten Radeons to host a righteous LAN party I’m getting no free money while sitting on my ass doing nothing. I burn lots of power while sitting on my ass doing nothing either way, so why is one morally acceptable and the other not?

      • WaltC
      • 6 years ago

      Yeah, gosh–I better close my savings account and other interest bearing accounts, since you’ve discovered that using money to make make money while you are “sitting on your ass” is “just plain wrong,” a huge no-no. Thanks for the tip. [Not…;)] It isn’t “free money”–they paid for the GPUs and the computers and the PSU’s and everything else *and* they pay their own power bills, too, presumably.

      Have you never heard the phrase, “Don’t work hard, work smart”…? Nothing wrong with some people using their noggins and taking risks, etc. Sure, cracking rocks and running a dry cleaner’s is very athletic work, comparatively, but you lose me on the moral end of it. Work is work–you can either work with your brain or work with your muscle–you have to make a choice. But I think all work is honorable, from the guy swabbing the floors at night to the fellow in the next cubicle running the math on the next rocket-plane prototype. Neither kind of work is immoral as far as I can see.

        • bittermann
        • 6 years ago

        If your ambition is to sit on your ass and make money your welcome to it. I have no problem whatsoever with that and I would love to do that myself. As far as I know there is no easy way to do that until retirement, do you? The coins are more volatile that the stock market for cripes sake and have a large amount of exchange/security issues.. I think you and others are blinded by the fact that its not the cypto-currency I take issue with its the way its done with rocketing AMD card prices and wasting a huge amount of electricity. I see that as wrong. You have a problem with that too dam bad…

          • gamerguy76
          • 6 years ago

          I can’t tell if you believe what you write or you are trolling. I’m hoping your just trolling. Your “waste of electricity” argument is a straw-man argument. I’m assuming you are kinda tech savvy since you read this site. How about you do a tracert from your machine to this server. How many hops is that? You know how many data centers that goes through so you can post your comment? Is that a waste of electricity? If you didn’t post your comment we can save all that energy for some village in a third world country. There are lots of wasteful things in this world that uses electricity. Netflix/Facebook aren’t running on fairy dust. So before you throw stones at miners, practice what you preach, stop using facebook/netflix/google and trolling websites. You will save tons of energy!

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Not trolling this is a bigger waste. Everything else you stated has an actual purpose beyond personal fulfillment (get rich the lazy way while sitting on your ass using large amounts of electricity). I don’t surf using max power of my video card all day 24/7/365. Most servers don’t run max 24/7 and if they do you need to upgrade. They also benefit more than one person. Do you people actually believe the crap your spouting? LOL your equating doing a ping test to mining? Maybe you should rethink your straw-man argument. Coin fan boys are just as bad as cpu/gpu ones…I disagree as strongly as you agree with something so I must be trolling. wow

            • gamerguy76
            • 6 years ago

            I don’t care if you disagree with mining. Your energy argument is weak. There are many flaws with crypto currency. Argue those merits. But really energy? You ever been to datacenter? They are the biggest waste of energy on this planet.

            “Most servers don’t run max 24/7 and if they do you need to upgrade” Thats the problem! Lots of data centers aren’t at max load, most of the time they are underutilized, but they still suck down electricity.

            “LOL your equating doing a ping test to mining?” Sigh, obviously my point was completely missed and over your head. Re-read my response. Wait for the light bulb to come on….

            Btw, I’m not the one who is attacking mining like some religious nut.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            You sound like a religious mining zealot to me…seriously you’re equating data centers, which are actually needed in this day and age that serve thousands of customers to personal power sucking mining rigs…WTF? You might want to change that light bulb young man…yeah, I’m the nutty one. 😐

            • gamerguy76
            • 6 years ago

            Wait, I assumed you know how cryptocurrency mining works? Those miners are doing exactly what mastercard / visa are doing at their datacenters, but its bad cause they are not mastercard / visa? Wow nevermind I take it back, you are not trolling, your just umm not that bright.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            My god you are thicker than a hillbilly. Do you honestly think you need that kind of processing power to process credit card or paypal transactions and know the difference between processing those and mining. Wait never mind, yes you do.

            • gamerguy76
            • 6 years ago

            Facepalm, wow its like talking to a wall. You obviously don’t know about crytpo-currency. How about you read the white papers or at least the wiki. Then come back with some valid arguments.

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            LOL..naw, I’d rather let you zealots keep preaching without backing anything up with facts. Coin mining is a fix for something that isn’t a problem, except for the paranoid and drug dealers who don’t for whatever reason want to use today’s currency options. Which means its a total waste of electricity for no reason at all. 99.99% of the world uses credit cards or something else (paypal) for transactions making mining pointless, except those in the US on cheap electricity to mine. Again, please change that light bulb and get off your high horse.

            • gamerguy76
            • 6 years ago

            Yes for once you are correct… drug dealers do use bitcoins. I got a secret to tell you too… don’t tell anyone its super secret… drug dealers also use cash and credit cards. Shocker… I know very shocking. I can’t believe they would use cash and credit cards too,. wow!!!

            • bittermann
            • 6 years ago

            Yup…so no need for bitcoins to exist then is there if they can use the current system for illegal gains…I know shocking secret right! Stop wasting electricity.

            • superjawes
            • 6 years ago

            Actually, drug dealers aren’t going to use credit cards for drug deals. They might have one for legitimate purchases, but anything black market is going to be done in cash to keep it off bank statements.

            Also, if “drug dealing” is the primary profession of the individual, said individual will probably avoid banks and credit cards as well, since large purchases with no clear income is going to look suspicious.

    • tanker27
    • 6 years ago

    I haven’t really read up on Crypto-currency much but can somebody tell me why the R9’s are better than anything from NVIDIA?

      • Silus
      • 6 years ago

      GCN is very powerful with integer operations, while NVIDIA targets the HPC market that for the most part requires more power with floating point operations, where NVIDIA’s hardware shines.

        • tanker27
        • 6 years ago

        GCN????? Again I’m ignorant…..

          • dragontamer5788
          • 6 years ago

          Graphics Core Next, its the chip architecture that R9s are made out of.

          Basically, AMD decided to have integer operations execute faster on their GPUs. NVidia focuses instead on floating point operations. Integer operations are used in crypto-currencies.

            • tanker27
            • 6 years ago

            OK thanks, now it all makes sense.

      • tipoo
      • 6 years ago

      Read this article. tl;dr Nvidia doesn’t care about integer performance on GPUs because it doesn’t matter to gaming workloads.

      [url<]http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153467-amd-destroys-nvidia-bitcoin-mining[/url<]

        • erwendigo
        • 6 years ago

        This is a illiterate opinion:

        First, this link doesnΒ΄t say what you are saying, in there they are saying that nvidia gpus lacks CERTAIN integer operations that are very useful for cryptography (rotated shift). The support for integers with nvidia gpu is OK. But they have a very important disavantadge with the support of some instructions, and the nvidia gpus have to emulate with three operations (shift-shift-add).

        Second, this article is obsolete. The performance of nvidia gpus are now around 50-66% of the equivalent AMD card. I saw around 420 Khash/sec with a OCed GTX 770, 580 Khash/sec with a OCed GTX 780, etc. It’s a very good improvement.

        Third and the last one, IΒ΄ll need to see this with my own eyes, but Maxwell has a very powerfull capabilities in cryptography. If a GM107 is around 250-300 Khash/sec, with only 640 processing units, and with only 60W… well. Now it’s the “tiny gpu” with the best ratio of performance/power consumption, but in the future, with 20 nm and big chips (morrrr transistors) based in maxwell, well, you can imagine it.

        Hell, a simple GM107 20nm, named it “GM117”, will be a very interesting mini-gpu for mining.

          • UnfriendlyFire
          • 6 years ago

          The question is, will the mining bubble still be growing by the time the 20mm Maxwells show up?

          If so, you can bet there’s going to be a shortage of the Maxwell GPUs, and possibly large amount of 290Xs and 290s being dumped into Craigslist and eBay

          If the bubble had already burst… then it’s not going to be profitable to mine.

            • Billstevens
            • 6 years ago

            It also depends what the most profitable alt coin is. Litecoin right now is one of the only high BTC value altcoins that is still best mined by GPUs. That will be changing shortly when ASIC Litecoin minners start coming out this spring. At that point the GPUs will be all but worthless for mining because of the crazy power use reduction by ASIC miners. Also the minability of the coin through any alternative method will become a valueless proposition as the difficulty will skyrocket again.

            At that point we will either see a glut of used Radeons coming onto ebay or most people will keep their farms in the hopes to catch the next wave of another Alt coin in the future.

            I am would be weary of buying a used Radeon at that point though because if they were used for farming they were pounding away at full load for months on end. I can’t imaging that is good for the lifetime of the chip or the cooling unit.

          • Vaughn
          • 6 years ago

          I just sold a 6950 I had laying around to a miner last night, but he wanted to test the card before he took it so I put in back in my machine and he ran cgminer and I was getting a 420khash/sec and that card is very old.

          A overclocked 770 giving the same rate as a stock 6950 is not impressive!

          • f0d
          • 6 years ago

          that must be a REALLY overclocked 770 to get t420 KH/s – most others dont get anywhere near that

          [url<]https://litecoin.info/Mining_hardware_comparison[/url<] R9 280X 570-770 KH/s depending on clocks/settings R9 290, 748-882 KH/s GTX 770, 123-240 KH/s GTX 780, 320 KH/s GTX 780ti, 430 KH/s nobody mines bitcoin with videocards anymore with usb asics that can destroy any videocard but even then [url<]https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison[/url<] 680 (close as i could find to 770) 110-127KH's 7970 555-825 KH/s butterflylabs usb miner 5GH/s $274 cointerra GSX I pci-e 400 GH/s $1599 [url<]https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/5-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html[/url<] [url<]http://cointerra.com/product/gsxi/[/url<] maxwell GM107 (750ti) really does seem pretty good at 250-300 KH/s and could really be interesting for the higher end models to use as litecoin miners

    • dmjifn
    • 6 years ago

    AMD’s at 3.72 / share as I type this, up ~1 from a year ago. I do hope something like this can give them a big enough shot in the arm to help them rebound. Or at least transition from areas where they struggle. I mean, if they go out of business, they’re exiting the PC market anyway.

      • sschaem
      • 6 years ago

      And they where at 4.50 as month ago, and announced a 10% or more drop in revenue for january-march

      People don’t realize, this doesn’t add a penny to AMD revenue. Those cards would have been bought by gammers, and AMD get the same revenue if that 280x sell for 290$ or 500$

    • drfish
    • 6 years ago

    That sure [url=http://dr_fish.speedymail.org/flyingpsu.jpg]brings[/url] [url=http://dr_fish.speedymail.org/newperspectivethumb.jpg]back[/url] [url=http://dr_fish.speedymail.org/foldingnook.jpg]memories[/url]…

    [i<]Edit: Ugh, freaking underscore breaks it it everytime... Here are the TinyURL versions: [url=http://tinyurl.com/qyhdpag<]Flying PSU[/url<] [url=http://tinyurl.com/o8263hg<]New Perspective[/url<] [url=http://tinyurl.com/py5clcx<]Folding Nook[/url<][/i<]

      • Scrotos
      • 6 years ago

      I wonder…

      [url=”http://dr_fish.speedymail.org/flyingpsu.jpg”]brings[/url]

      Ok, nope, quotes don’t help either.

        • drfish
        • 6 years ago

        Nope. Nothing fixes it, maybe the comment code will get updated someday. Serves me right for using a filthy underscore anyway…

          • JustAnEngineer
          • 6 years ago

          I believe that we may need to get Bruno to look at what’s wrong with the way that the characters are parsed.

          [url<]http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/topics/urlencoding.htm[/url<] [url<]http://dr[/url<]_fish.speedymail.org/flyingpsu.jpg could become [url<]http://dr[/url<]%5Ffish.speedymail.org/flyingpsu.jpg if it were just a problem with a special character, but the URL still gets borked.

    • just brew it!
    • 6 years ago

    I wonder if any miners have gotten raided as suspected “growing operations” as a result of the elevated power usage…

      • way2strong
      • 6 years ago

      It’s a sad state of affairs that that would undoubtedly be sufficient “probable cause” to obtain a warrant.

        • Fred & Ethel
        • 6 years ago

        I wonder if that community has started to take up LED lights.

        Now is that really documented that a power bill is enough to get a warrant?

          • not@home
          • 6 years ago

          No, no warrant. They do not even need a warrant anymore. Thank you patriot act and all the BS anti terrorism scare freaks.

            • NeelyCam
            • 6 years ago

            What bothers me is that homeland security is hired by MPAA to hunt down pirates. How does that “secure the homeland” exactly?

            • Spotpuff
            • 6 years ago

            Piracy funds terrorism or something stupid.

            • The Wanderer
            • 6 years ago

            The way it works is:

            Copyright enforcement used to be handled in part by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement, for historical reasons probably derived at least in part from counter-smuggling policies.

            Immigrations and Customs Enforcement is one of the agencies that got merged to form the Department of Homeland Security. However, they still have all the same responsibilities (and authority) as before.

            Where overreach comes in is that they’re no longer limiting their copyright-enforcement work to customs and the borders, but applying it anywhere/everywhere apparent violations take place. (And in the fact that “border” has been redefined to “anywhere within 100 miles of a border”, and possibly also of an airport – and in the fact that searches and seizures by ICE within that area have been officially deemed to not constitute “unreasonable search and seizure”, thus requiring no warrant.)

          • Firestarter
          • 6 years ago

          LED lights don’t work for growing

            • jss21382
            • 6 years ago

            They do, they’re just not as efficient as they claim, led’s marketed as 600w draw under 200 and produce half as much as a 600w HID light source. So, you can save about 1/3 on electricity using led, but the up front costs are a little staggering for most hobbyists.

            • Firestarter
            • 6 years ago

            wow 1/3rd is still quite a lot of power saved

            • jss21382
            • 6 years ago

            It is until you factor in the initial investment of ~200 for an HID setup vs 1200 for an equivalent LED setup

            • Dr_b_
            • 6 years ago

            [url<]https://www.lsgc.com/interior_led_lighting/definity-lamps/mynature_grow/[/url<] new tech in LED Lighting. They do work for growing.

            • Milo Burke
            • 6 years ago

            No! This means they will be raiding people for using normal amounts of electricity!

        • indeego
        • 6 years ago

        [url=http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/411/964/9b5.jpg<]Warrant.[/url<]

      • Vaughn
      • 6 years ago

      depends on the scale of the setup. With most of the miners I know they are only adding $100-150 to the monthly bill. That isn’t enough of a power draw to get your red flagged by the electric company and the cops knocking at your door.

      • Kougar
      • 6 years ago

      Oh god, you’re so right haha. Not just the high electricity usage but also the high thermals, many of those rooms are venting right out a window so the place will light up in a thermal cam just like a grower’s house.

      Now to just leave a few bags of potting soil next to their porch or driveway…

      • Milo Burke
      • 6 years ago

      I leave my vacuum cleaner running 24/7 just to disrupt the status quo.

      • farrengottu
      • 6 years ago

      I am in Colorado. So not much risk of being raided for me. growing is legal here, to an extent.

      • CB5000
      • 6 years ago

      yeah its possible. my miner rooms is quite warm…. and currently using about 3000+ watts of electricity with a 30 amp line in there. At the moment its heating the house almost by it self. Come summer its gonna be a nightmare.

        • just brew it!
        • 6 years ago

        And this is why I used to shut most of my dedicated Folding@home systems off in the summer!

      • Firestarter
      • 6 years ago

      IIRC this has already happened multiple times.

    • Jon1984
    • 6 years ago

    Most people who mine are form countries were the electricity is cheap so they can get any profit. Here in Portugal energy prices are very high and from the stores I use to buy hardware, prices are in par with the suggested price.

      • kalelovil
      • 6 years ago

      Same here in New Zealand, high power prices and only slight video card price inflation, nothing like what you hear about in the USA.

        • sschaem
        • 6 years ago

        Can’t you guys by cheap, cheap, cheap China solar panel and make tons of money?

        I can understand someone in Finland not doing it, but Portugal?

      • Heighnub
      • 6 years ago

      The prices of R9 290 cards in the UK have actually come down quite a bit since launch.

      • dragontamer5788
      • 6 years ago

      I think its more about the US’s obsession with crytpocoins.

        • Chrispy_
        • 6 years ago

        Understandable given how little you can trust the US government to respect your financial/communication privacy.

        Cryptocurrency is something outside viable control of the US government, it has more appeal to US citizens than anywhere else in the world, excluding nations that suffer hyperinflation where it works as well as $ or €.

          • dragontamer5788
          • 6 years ago

          You say that, but the US Government is one of the few governments that seem interested in continuing the Cryptocoin experiment. China has banned them, but in contrast, here are the words of the Secret Service and FBI.

          [url<]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/11/21/heres-how-bitcoin-charmed-washington/[/url<] Secret Service: [quote<] Later in the same panel, Edward Lowery of the Secret Service testified that cyber criminals "have not by and large gravitated toward peer-to-peer crypto-currencies." Rather, they "have by and large gravitated toward centralized digital currencies that are based in a locale that may have less regulatory guidelines and less aggressive law enforcement."[/quote<] Raman represented the FBI: [quote<] "We are attuned to the criminal use" of Bitcoin, Raman said. But "there are many legitimate uses. These virtual currencies are not in and of themselves illegal."[/quote<] Say what you will about the country, but realize that you live in one of the few countries that is overall supportive of the chaotic rule of the market. [url=http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/09/news/bitcoin-alibaba/<]Other countries have outright banned Bitcoins[/url<].

            • gamoniac
            • 6 years ago

            Good info. Thanks for the links!

          • faramir
          • 6 years ago

          Cryptocurrency(ies) of today is (are) a fad, like Tamagotchi and Facebook. The fad will subside and the only ones actually turning a reliable profit from this fad will be the ones selling the hardware (ever wondered why fumbling AMD doesn’t use their entire production run of high end GPUs to print their own money and is instead selling them well bellow the actual US going price ?).

          And it’s not as if something like this hasn’t happened before – just think of the gold rush … when the smart money was on selling shovels and claims, not on digging holes in the ground.

          If you are a risk taker you’re just as well off playing the lottery.

            • dragontamer5788
            • 6 years ago

            Agreed, for the wrong reason however.

            I believe a better cryptocoin will be created, that will later supplant BTC. DOGE for instance, seems to have a much more sane design compared to BTC.

            BTC is currently in a bad spot because of transaction malleability, the domination of ASICs, and the halving of mining rewards. The primary exchange (Mt.Gox) is dying, it has become nearly impossible to mine for BTC and it will only become harder.

            The benefits however, of cryptocoin, have been proven. BTC is only a fad because like any other technology, a better design will come out eventually. There is a pressing need for cryptocoins in the modern economy of the internet.

        • keltor
        • 6 years ago

        The buyers are often not running them in the US, but in China. US energy prices are cheap from American points of view, but not in an overall comparison to China.

          • dragontamer5788
          • 6 years ago

          China just banned them all. It seems like a bad investment to do cryptocoins in China.

      • jokinin
      • 6 years ago

      Don’t complain, it could be worse, if lived in Spain, where electricity prices grow like a 5% (or more) a year due to an electric oligopoly.
      Of couse, I would never try to do this “mining” thing in the first place, because to me it seems like a bubble about to burst.

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