Win10 will be the only Windows supported on next-gen hardware

Microsoft announced Friday that Windows 10 will be the only version of Windows supported on future CPUs and chipsets. The company will continue to support Windows 7 and 8.1 on older hardware for the next several years, as promised by its support policy.

This announcement will affect those who were planning to run older versions of Windows on Intel's forthcoming Kaby Lake CPUs and AMD's Bristol Ridge APUs, as well as Qualcomm's Snapdragon 820. Microsoft didn't mention AMD's upcoming Zen chips, but it seems Zen will require Windows 10 for full support by definition.

If you're running Windows 7 or 8.1, here's what we know. For systems with Intel's Broadwell and Haswell CPUs and older, as well as AMD's Steamroller chips and older, nothing has changed. Users on those platforms will continue to receive all security patches until January of 2020 for Windows 7 and January of 2023 for Windows 8.1.

There is a caveat for those running older versions of Windows on systems with Skylake CPUs, though. After July 2017, Microsoft will only release the most critical security updates for those systems. In the event a Skylake-compatible update would cause problems for other, older systems running Windows 7 or 8.1, Microsoft will not fix or release the patch at all for Skylake systems. Those who want full support from Microsoft after July 2017 will need to upgrade their Skylake PC to Windows 10.

This type of support policy isn't unprecedented in the world of operating systems. For example, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.11 release remains on kernel 2.6.18-398, a far cry from the kernel 4.3 release needed for full Skylake support. The announcement seems likely to disappoint many people, though. 35% of Steam users remain on Windows 7.

Comments closed
    • ronch
    • 4 years ago

    Wait wait wait!!!

    Ryu Connor is now writing for TR?? Since when? I paid attention to who wrote the article just now.

      • Krogoth
      • 4 years ago

      He occasionally writes bits and there over the years.

    • south side sammy
    • 4 years ago

    ever feel like you’re being “herded” into something we really shouldn’t want? ………… (W10)

      • BlackDove
      • 4 years ago

      Its free and sounds too good to be true but people are gullible.

    • TheMonkeyKing
    • 4 years ago

    It’s not like we will be unable to install Windows 7 on future tech, right?

    Unless Microsoft will kill those keys.

      • sweatshopking
      • 4 years ago

      You may not be able to install 7 on future hardware.

      • egon
      • 4 years ago

      There are already Windows 7 installation issues that have to be [url=https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/1828/2290/9f/dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/Z170-K/DE164_100_Series_Windows_7_Setup_Guide_print.pdf<]worked around[/url<] on the latest motherboards. Now is probably about the right time for a Windows 7 holdout to get the best possible motherboard/CPU and set themselves up for the next four years (after which security updates end for Windows 7). But unless you're planning to switch to Linux, it's just delaying the inevitable. The backlash against Windows 10's data collection and forced updates has been too weak - Microsoft is unlikely to placate the holdouts by pulling back on those.

        • TheMonkeyKing
        • 4 years ago

        I know I am still on Win7 because the go-live version of Win10 killed my keyboard and mouse (bluetooth), one of HD drives (1TB sync mail storage), and AMD sound driver for my 7950. I worked around all those issues but still, if I was ‘grandma’ I would have bricked the computer.

    • LoneWolf15
    • 4 years ago

    Well, I’m glad I have a Devil’s Canyon then.

    I honestly can’t see a good need to upgrade. My HTPC has a low-voltage Haswell i5, SO’s desktop has a Sandy Bridge i5 (and IB processors are still way too expensive used for me to get one for her), and all three run great. As does my Sandy i5 laptop and her Penryn P8700.

    • anotherengineer
    • 4 years ago

    Does W10 support HSA?? 😉

    • GatoRat
    • 4 years ago

    I wonder if Kaby Lake and its chipset have features that would be problematic to support on Windows 7 and 8 without causing serious problems.

    • Cyco-Dude
    • 4 years ago

    here we go again, fucking micro$hit with their forced upgrade schemes…

      • BIF
      • 4 years ago

      Windows 10 upgrade is free for most, so why do you spell the company name with a $?

    • Fonbu
    • 4 years ago

    So you walk into a bar and its keenly named Windblows. You sit down to have a drink and the man next to you seems completely incapacitated. The bar tender says he has had only ten drinks and he was’ the new guy. But now, your the new guy in the bar and everyone offers you a drink. You mention to them you can only have ten drinks also, and a few lively bar inhabitants ask why. You simply reply “because I upped my version to ten from seven”. And now after ten its impossible to function or even walk, everything seems kinda half baked and the security cameras just seem to follow your every move. Darn it I know I should have went direct twelve and hit the floor. Ah um!

    • dmitriylm
    • 4 years ago

    I’ve been running Win10 for some time and have been quite happy with it. All of the best things about Win8.1 but with a better UI and no Metro.

      • BaronMatrix
      • 4 years ago

      A better UI…? No Metro…? Dude what OS are you using…? Win 10 is a schizophrenic, monolithic crap pile…

      Even Apple made a second OS for mobile… Hell, MS could have started with Desktop Core and allowed different UI teams to innovate on each type of device… But no, let’s make a huge pile of crap that has a mix of phone UI and Desktop UI while destroying all the UI things that made people love Win7…

      I found an Aero Glass plugin and if it just gives me back my pretty UI (which is also more productive FOR ME) I’ll go to Win 10 and try not to pay attention to what they did to the icons…
      It does have better support for new audio and video codecs, but Windows doesn’t need to do much for me.. I buy other programs for that…

        • Goofus Maximus
        • 4 years ago

        In all fairness, the UI IS better than 8.1…

        As of the update which gave me back color title bar, Windows 10 is now as quick as 8.1 was on my machine, and I was never a fan of that goofy aero look anyway 😉

          • DancinJack
          • 4 years ago

          Seriously. Aero was so bad. I can’t believe someone would go out of their way to install a plugin/third party app to force it upon themselves. Crazzzzzzzy.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            I hate aero too. I generally liked metro, but the wp 7 style more than 10

    • ozzuneoj
    • 4 years ago

    Can anyone explain how Microsoft is supporting Windows 10 on the Snapdragon 820? I would assume they are talking about a different mobile OS, but why mention it right along side x86 Windows?

      • ozzuneoj
      • 4 years ago

      Anyone?

      • sweatshopking
      • 4 years ago

      Full windows 10 is coming to ARM, and microsoft is currently higher engineers to continue the work on that project. Windows 10 mobile already supports the 810, surely the 820 is coming soon.

    • Arclight
    • 4 years ago

    The lack of OpenGL support and substandard drivers is the only thing stopping GNU Linux from replacing Windows. SteamOS is what is needed to boost adoption but they too have made some odd choices (1 TB min storage requirement and UEFI only).

    At this point there is no clear way forward. Dropping sale numbers, the end of SOI, imminent universal memory and possibly quatum co-processors, it’s an unexpected situation but it’s at least interesting.

    Personally I’m giving up on trying to make beastly gaming machines. Moving forward silent operation, energy efficiency and good enough computing power will guide my choices. As far as OS goes for browsing the internet, Linux is already the only choice.

      • orik
      • 4 years ago

      If you think games are the last holdout for windows you’ve been sipping the kool-aid too long.

      Why do workplaces predominantly run Windows? They don’t need OpenGL OR DirectX.

        • Arclight
        • 4 years ago

        Why do workplaces run Windows? Because it comes preinstalled on OEM machines and IT departments are more comfortable fixing Windows machines compared to Linux.

      • BobbinThreadbare
      • 4 years ago

      There is an ISO for bios with lesser hard drive requirements.

      [url<]http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse#announcements[/url<]

    • ronch
    • 4 years ago

    Guess Microsoft realized 7 is the new XP and want to prevent the XP scenario from happening again.

    • deniro444
    • 4 years ago

    See…this is why I’m sticking with Windows 9!

      • ronch
      • 4 years ago

      You mean Windows 9: The Lost Floppies?

        • Goofus Maximus
        • 4 years ago

        8 inch hard sector floppies, at that! At least they weren’t on Ampex FR-900 tape reels…

      • Mr Bill
      • 4 years ago

      [url=http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/<]Plan 9[/url<]?

        • DrDominodog51
        • 4 years ago

        Plan 9 is the reason I’m trying to hunt down 2 Tualatins + a dual socket server board to support them.

    • tootercomputer
    • 4 years ago

    Okay, besides the frustration of not having the option to use whatever OS you want (I can relate to that frustration), what are the advantages of Win 7? I loved Win 7 when it came out, but Win 10 seems to me like a truly advanced OS, especially compared to Win 7 which seems old and slow and IMHO was only an upgraded Win Vista.

      • Deanjo
      • 4 years ago

      – a non schizophrenic UI (without tons of whitespace)
      – compatibility with older software
      – compatibility with older hardware
      – far less spyware

      Just to name a few.

        • BaronMatrix
        • 4 years ago

        So someone else realizes the UI has personality issues…? I think it was done by the children of MS devs…

        The only reason Win10 boots faster is a trick that loads drivers after you boot… I do like the new audio video codecs, but that’s not enough to get around the EDGEless windows that make me dizzy…

        And right now I haven’t finished with my DX11 games so I don’t need DX12 yet…

    • just brew it!
    • 4 years ago

    I think this issue is being overblown. MS isn’t saying that Windows 8.1 and earlier *won’t* run on Kaby Lake or Zen; all they’re saying is that if there are issues, it isn’t their problem. IOW you’ll need to get patched chipset drives direct from Intel/AMD instead of from Microsoft.

    The only major potential trouble spot I see is if any new CPU registers are added to the ISAs. The OS kernel won’t know about the registers, and won’t save them on context switches. So any new software which attempts to use said registers would misbehave on older versions of Windows. But that’s really more of an application/OS compatibility issue (i.e. if the developer is doing their job right, those applications should refuse to install on older versions of Windows).

      • AJSB
      • 4 years ago

      …or use workaround alternatives to avoid the problem, witch is the RIGHT thing to do for ANY self-respected programmer.

      • ronch
      • 4 years ago

      [quote<]The only major potential trouble spot I see is if any new CPU registers are added to the ISAs. The OS kernel won't know about the registers, and won't save them on context switches.[/quote<] Throughout the history of x86 processors more and more registers and instructions have always been added to the x86 specifications, but backwards compatibility has never been an issue. New registers will be used by new software that knows the existence of those new registers but old software should still find AX, BX, CX and DX. Same thing with new instructions. I still play old DOS games that have totally no idea what MMX, SSE (from SSE1 to SSE4.2), AVX, AES, FMA3/4, F16C, XOP, NX-bit, and x64 extensions are, but of course they run perfectly. Of course, backwards compatibility has never really been because of newer processors not supporting old software, it's because newer OSes refuse to run old apps or new apps refuse to run on old OSes (like how would you run a 64-bit app on a 32-bit OS?). I never could run Space Quest natively on Windows 7 and I would need another layer (DOSbox) to make it work. And if a new app needs to use new registers found only in newer processors, they either state the minimum OS requirement or provide a separate code path that'll allow them to run on an older OS which doesn't use newer instructions that'll stump said older OS. In practice though, devs almost always go for the least common denominator so new instructions take a while to become widely used. For example, AMD64 came out in 2003. At that time most folks were still running 32-bit OSes, and it took many years before 64-bit apps became common, so in the meantime folks were fine running 32-bit WinXP on their Athlon 64 PCs because they don't have 64-bit apps to run anyway. It's gonna be the same with newer processors. Even if you continue using Win7 it'll take a while before you'll see apps that take advantage of any new instructions or features found in those new chips. And even if issues arise, I'm sure Intel and AMD will put out a workaround.

        • chlamchowder
        • 4 years ago

        Let’s say Intel/AMD introduce AVX-1024. All of a sudden registers zmm0-zmm31 are 1024 bits long. Win7 obviously doesn’t know about that (thinks they’re still 512 bits, as with AVX-512). What he means is that Win7 won’t know to save the bigger registers on a context switch. Aka:

        -Program A decides to use AVX-1024. Those instructions work.
        -Program A uses up all its allocated time on the processor (it’s someone else’s turn)
        -Win7 does a context switch, saving all of the processor’s registers in memory so A can be quickly resumed, but only saves the first (lower) 512 bits of the AVX registers.
        -Program B gets to run, and also uses the AVX-1024. The upper 512 bits of A’s data in the AVX registers gets overwritten.
        -A gets to run again after B’s time expires
        -Win7 saves B’s registers to memory, and loads A’s register state from memory back into the processor registers (but again only takes care of the lower 512 bits of the AVX registers)
        -A gets totally wacky results from AVX-1024 because the upper 512 bits of the AVX registers have been clobbered by B.
        -A horribly implodes and crashes.
        -B gets to run again
        -While imploding, A clobbered the upper 512 bits of the AVX registers again (and again Win7 hasn’t saved B’s upper 512 bits)
        -B horribly implodes and crashes

        But any new instruction that doesn’t use new registers and doesn’t require know-how from the OS should work. I think.

          • ronch
          • 4 years ago

          That’s pretty much the same scenario when AMD64 came out, except it was from 32- to 64-bit. Same thing. New instructions were available that were designed to work with 64-bit registers. But on a 32-bit OS, say WinXP, the OS would simply refuse to run 64-bit apps. Not sure how it’s done though. Maybe the app will simply check which OS it’s running on and if it doesn’t find what it wants it’ll simply refuse to run. I guess a patch could fix this scenario. IIRC there was a patch for XP to let it support SSE. Or was it MMX?

            • Krogoth
            • 4 years ago

            Actually it was for USB 2 support back in the day.

            SSE and SSE2 were able to work with NT 5.x since they were introduced.

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            No, I don’t think it was for USB. I remember back in the K6-2 days when AMD said no patch is needed for Windows 95/98 to run 3DNow! code because 3DNow! uses the MMX registers. I cannot remember if it was the Pentium !!! that needed a patch to run SSE on 95/98 but the thing is, an OS can be patch so it’ll be aware of new instructions.

      • Bensam123
      • 4 years ago

      Ah, I didn’t really get what the headline was talking about. I thought the OS would refuse to install updates on older windows running newer hardware.

      • NovusBogus
      • 4 years ago

      Exactly, I don’t see this being a big deal in actual practice. MS would certainly love to make 7/8.x magically disappear, but the rest of the world doesn’t care what MS thinks and will keep on truckin’ until Intel breaks something big.

    • USAFTW
    • 4 years ago

    I was using 10 for a few months and lately it just became so irritating.
    I’m on a slow unlimited internet service, and because of the forced updates and data collection going on in the background, I couldn’t do a single thing online, even visit tech report. It really got nasty.
    Also, the UI wasn’t really appealing, at all. I mean come on M$, at least put some effort into it. The flat buttons and the white title bar, the start menu is simply not as good as 7s, etc.
    So I got back to 7 and couldn’t be happier. I was gonna try vista but I couldn’t find drivers for the motherboard, e.g. Ethernet.
    If anybody’s got any tips on how to get 7 Lab drivers to work for vista I’d be delighted.
    The only reason, as far as I’m concerned, to jump ship is DX12, I wish Deva would use Vulkan instead.
    I can see why they’re so eager to get it installed on everything. It is true. It’s mass data collection. And glad they got everybody else onboard to force everyone to swallow this sh*t sandwich.

      • heinsj24
      • 4 years ago

      I just down-graded my laptop back to 8.1.

      Windows 10 doesn’t quite feel done, yet. Edge still has no plugin support, no color picker for desktop colors, to change setting you must navigate to too many places, and wireless won’t connect all the time ,as it does under 8.1. And surprisingly for 2016, no native OS support for DVDs – with new installs. The only part that seems to work is the data compilation from Cortana.

      • anotherengineer
      • 4 years ago

      Ya, my brothers win 8.1 machine auto updated to W10, sigh.

      So
      [url<]http://www.classicshell.net/[/url<] and then [url<]https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10[/url<] or if you want something a bit more challenging and have the right router [url<]http://www.snbforums.com/threads/how-to-disable-windows-10-tracking-using-ipset-entware.26615/[/url<] cheers

        • BlackDove
        • 4 years ago

        It lets you revert to 8.1 for 30 days. Way easier.

          • anotherengineer
          • 4 years ago

          I checked install date, it was almost 3 months ago!

        • chµck
        • 4 years ago

        that shtup10 is real helpful
        i use startisback instead of classicshell myself.

          • BaronMatrix
          • 4 years ago

          Has anyone tried Aero Glass…? [url<]http://www.glass8.eu/[/url<] It looks like it'll give me EDGES ON WINDOWS... That makes me nauseous... And I don't use most apps full screen because I have 1080p 23"+ LCDs... Most of the real estate is wasted... Admittedly that's why I'm not in a hurry to go to 4K... I'll have to go back to the Win3.1 days and have 4 apps on each screen... I'm going to try and install it tonight and see... It's very manual but it uses known APIs to re-enable Aero and window chrome...

      • ronch
      • 4 years ago

      This flat color fad going on right now needs to die a quick, painful death.

      And if you ask me, I’m not buying this new ‘design language’ — I think someone just started this lazy fad of using Paint to make a GUI then everyone else followed.

      Gotta trim your dev costs , right?

        • USAFTW
        • 4 years ago

        Damn straight. Looks like someone at Microsoft came up with a brilliant of no design is the new design.
        It’s a shame especially when you consider they were to same people who first came out with Jade and longhorn aurora and then vista and 7 and then their innovation jar dried up.

          • chlamchowder
          • 4 years ago

          I don’t like it either, but both Android and iOS are also going the flat route. It seems like an industry trend (towards simplicity).

            • BaronMatrix
            • 4 years ago

            Andriod and iOS aren’t running Photoshop, Visual Studio and Sql Server on top of all the other stuff I run to develop code… And though they have high res, they also aren’t using it on a 34″ 4K monitor… With NO TOUCH…

            Google has Chrome OS and Android… Apple has iOS and OSX… Microsoft decides to make a huge monolithic turd…

        • BaronMatrix
        • 4 years ago

        I worked in WinDiv for five years and the dumbest people on the planet (Program Managers) decide on features and many I knew couldn’t even connect the mouse right (WITH USB)…

        Devs have to suffer in order to make dumb ideas work… And as we can see without real testers, stuff is rough…

        DESKTOP CORE with pluggable UIs was the way to go… I guess they didn’t want to be like Linux even though now they want everything cross platform… I thought they removed the chrome around windows because of a browser that shall remain nameless…

      • Kretschmer
      • 4 years ago

      -1 for using “M$” unironically.

      [url<]https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22/m[/url<]

        • USAFTW
        • 4 years ago

        Actually, I think they’re is money involved in everything Microsoft, and there must be a “partnership” between M$ and Intel to suddenly decide “we won’t support our brand new processors but we will support those from 2013.”

      • GTVic
      • 4 years ago

      Legacy IE on Windows 10 seems to have big problems. If you switch to Edge or Chrome then browsing speed should not be an issue.

    • bronek
    • 4 years ago

    I am currently running my system on Ivy Bridge (Xeon E5) and was looking for an upgrade – trouble is, none of the processors released by Intel to date seem like they want to compete with 2 years old platform. Yes in some respects they are better e.g. lower power and heat, faster in some tasks, but for general use it seems that older generation, but higher core frequency still rules. Or am I mistaken? Anyway my point is that, until users get strong incentive to upgrade to newest processors, this “threat” from Microsoft sounds pretty hollow.

      • Beahmont
      • 4 years ago

      Rules? Absolutely not. To the best of my knowledge, no prior generation of Core based processors is superior to a later generation.

      Still amazingly competitive? Absolutely. While not better in any way, they are very much in the range of ‘close enough’ to newer generations that the benefits of upgrading are mostly on the newer platform and said platforms capabilities than from the actual CPU upgrade.

        • Snake_Doc
        • 4 years ago

        Isn’t Broadwell better than Skylake in “some” ways?

          • DrDominodog51
          • 4 years ago

          Yes, but that assumes you can get Broadwell.

    • kamikaziechameleon
    • 4 years ago

    windows 8.0 search was amazing, it was so flipping good! gut the rest of that OS is trash, windows 8.1 not much better IMHO. Windows 10 showed us to a large extent what 8 should have been much like how win 7 showed us what vista was supposed to be. Thing is, windows 7 is just so good! Don’t want to see them faze it out so quick, and I don’t even use it outside of work.

    But this push to unify the platform and then improve the support is a good push, ultimately it will produce a better windows experience but in the interim it’s going to be rough.

      • oldog
      • 4 years ago

      I have Win 10 on about six of my home PCs and Win 7 on two (iOS on the rest ;)). The exceptions are for older machines using software unsupported on Win 10. These PCs are never “upgraded” and I install no new software on them.

      I guess they’re good to go until 2020.

    • tmoag
    • 4 years ago

    Your drugstore sells information about you and your prescriptions to drug companies. Ever hear of Google? Microsoft is a warm fuzzy information stealing kitten compared to those two.

      • BlackDove
      • 4 years ago

      My drug store doesnt forward everything i say and do to unnamed third parties. I dont agree to let my drug store send telemetry constantly. No other operating system, including previous Windows has what 10 has in its terms.

    • odizzido
    • 4 years ago

    I can see 7, but to not care about 8.1 they must really want to piss people off…errr….get them to upgrade to 10.

    I am just hoping steamOS will be good to go before I start having any issues with 7

      • derFunkenstein
      • 4 years ago

      While I understand some of the objections of the crowd who doesn’t want to give up Win7 to go to Win10, going from 8.1 to 10 is nothing but a huge step up.

        • Goofus Maximus
        • 4 years ago

        Word. Though 8.1 wasn’t really all that bad, once one got used to it, 10 is still way better.

          • derFunkenstein
          • 4 years ago

          Yeah, I didn’t mean that it was terrible like 8.0 was, just that 10 is so much better.

          • xeridea
          • 4 years ago

          There was no getting used to 8.1. Them putting in the start button that took you to candy land didn’t help. The only way to make it tolerable is to install ClassicShell. When I eventually go to 10 for DX12, I am still going to use ClassicShell. My aunt has Win10… and I hate the new start menu. If MS did away with all the UI garbage, people would be flocking to Win10, and they would probably already have 500 million installs… without nagging.

    • DreadCthulhu
    • 4 years ago

    Even aside from the Telemetry issues, Windows 10 updates have been known to uninstall various utilities & drivers without any sort of user prompting. That alone will keep me from using it; the OS shouldn’t mess with user programs without asking.

    • ronch
    • 4 years ago

    Of course this could work both ways. People would either be forced to go with Windows 10 or hold off buying new processors. Given how most folks are happy with their CPUs these days, giving them another reason to hold off buying a new CPU is a bad idea if you’re Intel or AMD.

      • kuttan
      • 4 years ago

      Another possibility too more and more adoption of Linux OS.

        • ronch
        • 4 years ago

        Not really. I used to be a Linux fan years ago but in my experience, a particular Linux distro either works or it doesn’t. That’s not a problem if you’re the techy type but most folks don’t even know how to reformat their computers from scratch. And even techy types just don’t have the time or tenacity to make a Linux distribution work especially if he’s busy (like, they still need to edit the code or get down and dirty in the terminal?). And of course, people hold on to Windows apps, no matter how much we want to believe that most open source software are robust (even the much touted and praised LibreOffice isn’t working properly on my PC).

          • BIF
          • 4 years ago

          ^ this, ^ this, ^ this!

        • tipoo
        • 4 years ago

        The Year of Linux attempt 23: electric boogaloo

          • ronch
          • 4 years ago

          I think the entire Linux universe is just too fragmented. If you are truly serious about going Linux you need to get a distribution with a real company behind it (Red Hat, for example, not Ubuntu!), and that means it’ll most probably not be free anymore.

          Linux is attractive to those who use it because it’s free. People love getting things for free. “My computer runs an OS that’s free! Amazing, huh? And it works great!” Uh huh. So does Windows, but nobody ever says Windows is awesome… because it isn’t free. I only tried it because it’s free. Would I pay money for an OS that can’t run all my Windows apps? (Wine? Yeah, right.) No. So if you don’t give Linux away for free anymore, and given the trouble you’d have to go through to get used to it (not to mention getting all your hardware supported properly on a fragmented ecosystem), would people still want Linux?

            • Srsly_Bro
            • 4 years ago

            Nicely said, Ronch. I’m glad you’re doing well.

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            Thanks, bro. Glad you’re doing well too!

            • w76
            • 4 years ago

            [quote<]and that means it'll most probably not be free anymore.[/quote<] I paid for UnRAID. Why? It saves hours upon hours of fiddling with linux, they've done it for me, it makes adding ability via Docker a breeze. It's obviously not a desktop OS, but it's an example of people being happy to pay for a value-add product. (Edit: Though you can use it on a desktop, by way of VM, if you wanna get fancy) Linux can get there, they just have to drop the ideological issues. For example, I don't know the legal license of the code running my server, and... don't care in the least. It's just working great. Just like how virtually no OSX user cares what it was based upon. Apple just made it work.

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            Yup. So you just supported what I’ve said.

            Want it free? Get crap.

            Want it fixed? Pay!

            • JustAnEngineer
            • 4 years ago

            Windows 10 upgrade is free. BlackDove still hates it fanatically.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            Upgrade implies that its better than what it replaces.

            • Krogoth
            • 4 years ago

            Windows 10 is better then its predecessors from an objective standpoint.

            Your problem resides with EULA of the software not the software itself.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            How is it objectively better than 8.1?

            • Krogoth
            • 4 years ago

            WDDM 2.0, DirectX 12, native NVe support, default UI combines the best elements of old 9x schema and “Metro”. It does and will take advantage of new power states and instructional sets that come with current and future silicon.

            I’m just scratching the surface. Windows 8.1 is really just Windows 8 SP1 branded on a seperate product because Windows 8 was arguably a bigger misstep than Vista. Microsoft wants to bury Windows 8 ASAP.

            Vista and 7 have already reached EOL status for mainstream support. Vista is about to go EOL for extended support.

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            If it wasn’t free I doubt it would see widespread adoption beyond the pre-installed versions that come with retail PCs.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            I doubt that. I am mostly happy with my laptop upgraded to Windows 10. You just need to adjust the seats and rearview mirrors like in any new car.

            Adjustments in the Group Policy Editor as mentioned in another thread here, and oh yeah, I still love Classic Shell, so upgrade that too.

            And I’ve been using Stardock’s Fences for a couple years now. Nice way to organize my desktop icons, and that still works with Windows 10.

    • tipoo
    • 4 years ago

    It kinda seems like they’re borrowing a lot of the things I least like about the Apple ecosystem. You can’t go an OS back from what ships with your hardware, i.e I can’t install say Snow Leopard on my Haswell rMBP because there is no hardware support in it.

    Does it allow them to move forward faster? Maybe, but it could also leave you in a predicament if you have a mission critical piece of software that doesn’t play nice with new OSs.

    I mean, I’m mostly fine with Win10, but if they did ship a future OS that was all sorts of broken and was the only one that would work with new processors that could be a bag of suck.

    • not@home
    • 4 years ago

    I have been running Linux servers for the last few years. It is not much of a step to go to Linux for my desktop. I tried the Win 10 preview and hated it. IMHO Linux is easier to use than Win 10.

    • Deanjo
    • 4 years ago

    [quote<] For example, Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.11 release remains on kernel 2.6.18-398, a far cry from the kernel 4.3 release needed for full Skylake support. [/quote<] You realize that enterprise distros backport to the older kernels right? They also backport security fixes to the remaining packages if needed. VERY different as to what MS is doing here.

      • Zizy
      • 4 years ago

      With Windows 7 + Skylake you will be getting security fixes related to the CPU/board, but not all the bells and whistles such as fancy power management and stuff like that.
      With older RHEL 5.11 + Skylake you will be getting security fixes related to the CPU/board, but not all the bells and whistles such as fancy power management and stuff like that.
      I don’t see the big difference. If anything, RHEL 5.11 offers fewer Skylake features than W7 does at the moment.

        • Deanjo
        • 4 years ago

        Actually power management does usually get back ported to the older enterprise kernels (for example when AMD’s newer CPU’s were introduced that had additional power states, those were back ported to the supported enterprise kernel).

        Also with something like RHEL 5.11 and newer Skylake features go that is largely dependent on the compiler. There is nothing stopping a user from using a newer version of GCC (or one that has the back ported patches) to compile a version of their favourite package supporting all the new whiz bang features on the newer architectures.

    • AJSB
    • 4 years ago

    I only have one thing to say : LINUX.

      • chuckula
      • 4 years ago

      I’ve got one word for you. Just one word: [s<]Plastics[/s<] [u<]LINUX[/u<].

      • hansmuff
      • 4 years ago

      [url<]http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey[/url<] Linux < 1% user base. But do go on.

        • bronek
        • 4 years ago

        Yes <1% as gaming platform and as of today. However Linux rules the datacentres all over the world, and it does not show on statistics of “sold Windows Server vs. sold competition OS” peddled by Microsoft – because Linux support sales are tiny fraction of install base on servers. Also it steadily (although slowly) increases its share on desktops, as people migrate away from older Windows and find that they do not want Windows 10, nor do they need any Windows anymore. And of course, all Android tablets and phones are also Linux.

          • DancinJack
          • 4 years ago

          It’s not just gaming.

          [url<]https://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=11&qpaf=&qpcustom=Linux&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=180&qpnp=24&qptimeframe=M[/url<]

          • xeridea
          • 4 years ago

          Linux will always be a datacenter thing, which it does extremely well. I find it extremely unlikely it will ever gain traction on desktop due to fragmentation, limited software and hardware support, high learning curve, way too much tinkering to do simple things, and… Unity. To those who like it great, it will just never be mainstream on the desktop. Windows has its flaws (there are many), but it is much more desirable to most of the population.

            • just brew it!
            • 4 years ago

            Unity != Linux, and “newbie” focused distros like Mint do not have much of a learning curve.

            (I agree that it’ll probably never be mainstream on the desktop, but disagree with some of your reasons…)

            • xeridea
            • 4 years ago

            I am more of a power user, and web/android developer by profession. I have tried getting used to linux several times over the years, but have always had too many issues with things not working (mainly graphics, wifi), at least not without advanced command line usage and editing settings. Or I want to play a game and have limited options (this is getting better, but not nearly good enough, and it is taking forever). The last time was about 8 months ago. I use it for servers, and vms.

            I would love it to mainstream, there are things I like about it, I just don’t see it due to how the developers want it vs what would work mainstream. For it to be mainstream the software situation needs fixed, developers need to offer packages rather than forcing manual building, or hoping it is in a repo. The interfaces and settings need improved, not dumbed down, just… usable without hacks.

            I am a big user of open source, the only paid software I use is Windows and games, I use a ton of software for work and pleasure, but open source doesn’t help if it isn’t easy/possible to grasp for the masses.

            • just brew it!
            • 4 years ago

            Yeah, GPU drivers (especially for newer non-Intel GPUs) can still be a PITA. WiFi is mostly a solved problem these days as long as you’re not using a Broadcom WiFi chip…

            • xeridea
            • 4 years ago

            My last attempt was an AM1 system for an HTPC, running XBMC(now Kodi). Kodi worked fine out of the box. I got the AMD drivers installed, after a bunch of console usage, but wasn’t able to get Netflix or Youtube to play smoothly. My bluetooth keyboard was having issues also. I loaded up Win7 with an extra key I had, and it was all setup and working shortly after. Bluetooth keyboard worked better (software anyway, had range issues, got a wireless), didn’t have to manually connect when coming out of sleep. Netflix and Youtube work fine. If I did get it all working, I would then need to delete Unity and use a different window manager, but I didn’t get that far.

            • just brew it!
            • 4 years ago

            I don’t bother with Unity any more. I either install from a Kubuntu ISO, or start from a barebones Ubuntu Server ISO and add stuff to that.

            • Concupiscence
            • 4 years ago

            I’ve gotta say, the drivers for GCN 1.0 and 1.1 parts have come a [i<]really[/i<] long way. I put together a little i3 box with a Radeon 7750 that was laying around, installed the latest Xubuntu x64, and it's worked 100% fine. Soma even fired up and ran without any issues right out of the box. Nouveau's a different story, alas...

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 4 years ago

            I think when Wayland comes out with AMD’s push for amdgpu drivers, and Vulkan, a lot of stuff will come together to make Linux much more compelling than it’s been. Especially with Valve putting it’s muscle behind getting game ports on Linux (and Wine’s general stomp towards near full DX9 compatibility [with dx10 and 11 apparently coming in the next year or so]).

            A lot of people like to make fun of every year being the year of Linux desktop, but I think 2018 is looking pretty bright right now.

            • NTMBK
            • 4 years ago

            I’m sure the 3rd rate Vulkan ports of DX12 games will be much better than the 3rd rate OpenGL ports of DX11 games…

            • Pitabred
            • 4 years ago

            Vulkan is much closer to DX12 than OpenGL is to DX11 and lower. By orders of magnitude.

            • maxxcool
            • 4 years ago

            [quote<] ""A lot of people like to make fun of every year being the year of Linux desktop, but I think 2018 is looking pretty bright right now."" [/quote<] Not really im my opinion.. as a sampling, not complete mind you. I do not see a native client for Fo4, CoD, Bf4, batllefront, Wow, whitcher, MGS, Batmans etc.. (no wine). There needs to be more focus on building linux engines in parallel with windows engines. But that drives up costs. Once you can convince DEV that there is enough money to have two separate DEV teams then we will see better linux uptake as there will be better reason to switch.

            • maxxcool
            • 4 years ago

            To be 100% fair, I can 100% do my job without windows.. so it is great for business.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 4 years ago

            Like I said, 2016 is not going to be the year of Linux.

            By the way regarding native Linux engine. UE4 already runs on Linux as does Unity. That’s about 80% of the market right there (of course devs still have to do some work to actually run on Linux).

            So the goal is more native Linux games in the future with Wine catching up on the past. A two pronged assault.

            Although clearly if playing AAA games is your goal, Linux will not be your first choice. Who knows though, maybe EA will port Frostbyte to Linux.

            Also, I’m pretty sure WoW works with Wine.

            • AJSB
            • 4 years ago

            Fragmented ?
            Not really, more like options…lots of them, for example, i also hate Unity but not a problem, use XFCE, LXDE, KDE, Gnome, MATE, Cinnamon or any other of the alternatives (i prefer XFCE).

            Lack of software ?
            Almost all “productive” software i use in Windows is OSS and its the same programs that i use in Linux:

            LibreOffice
            Google Chrome
            Firefox
            Thunderbird
            qbitTorrent
            Avidemux
            Handbrake
            FFmpeg
            GIMP
            Inkscape
            VLC
            etc,etc,etc.

            The rare programs that don’t exist for LINUX and that i need, i use WINE for them.

            Games ?
            Besides some old true LINUX native classics that i continue to enjoy, like ET:QW, there’s now a extensive catalogue of (“)native(“) games in Steam for LINUX including several AAA games, some new launches are now (almost) same day launch also for Linux.

            Granted, far from all AAA games arrive in Linux, at least for now, but i have enough games to play for a long long time…and again, i can use WINE to play some of the ones not ported to LINUX.

          • Farting Bob
          • 4 years ago

          Linux isn’t growing in desktop usage. It’s remained very static at between 1.5 and 2% for years, and in fact according to several marketshare reports it’s dropped in the last 6 months.

        • AJSB
        • 4 years ago

        OH YES, i go on :

        For MORE THAN a MONTH that EVERY TIME that i launch Steam client in Windows, that it asks me to participate in the hardware survey.

        During ALL this time, EVERY TIME that i launch the Steam client for LINUX that it NEVER EVER asked me EVEN ONCE to participate in the hardware survey.

        IMHO, that Steam Hardware “Survey” have ZERO value.

          • NTMBK
          • 4 years ago

          Well I’m not getting Linux, it clearly broke your Caps Lock.

          • maxxcool
          • 4 years ago

          They don’t ask. they just do it.

        • khelben1979
        • 4 years ago

        Not everyone cares about what the masses use for operating system. You use what suit you. I think all the discussion about linux these days clearly shows the frustration and dissapointments regardless of the version of Windows you feel unhappy about. More and more people start to at least investigate linux as a serious option, and I don’t think that the curiosity is going to end any time soon.

          • DancinJack
          • 4 years ago

          Yet people continue to not install and run Linux.

          Where’s the disconnect?

          • JustAnEngineer
          • 4 years ago

          [quote=”Khelben1979″<] You use what suit you. I think all the [i<]fragmentation of[/i<] Linux these days clearly shows the frustration and dissapointments regardless of the version of [i<]Linux[/i<] you feel unhappy about. More and more people start to at least investigate Linux as a serious option, and...[/quote<] They fork it into dozens of different distros because no-one can agree on what the operating system should look like. 🙁

      • Kretschmer
      • 4 years ago

      …which is still dead on the desktop.

      Assuming for sake of discussion that Win10 is “bad”, why would you assume that consumers would switch to “worse”?

      • DragonDaddyBear
      • 4 years ago

      Sure, we penguin lovers get longer support on some distros or we can roll out own. The catch is we usually don’t get support right away… if ever.

        • ronch
        • 4 years ago

        That’s the problem with free and open sauce software. Almost always, the only real available support are the forums. You can pay for support but then it technically becomes commercial software.

      • mtruchado
      • 4 years ago

      linux (kernel) works in the same way. Do not expect to see any new CPU supported at it’s full glory by a 2.6.x kernel. Adding a new support for hardware is always incremental, you put the new stuff in the new kernel, and only the latest OS uses that kernel.

      • maxxcool
      • 4 years ago

      People don’t buy Linux boxes. They Buy brand new macs. (yes its linux as well, but grandma does not know that and macosx is 1000% easier to use with her kodak easy share from 2005)

        • Ninjitsu
        • 4 years ago

        Mac OSX is UNIX not Linux.

          • maxxcool
          • 4 years ago

          Meh

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 4 years ago

            It’s not even Linux at all. IT was BSD based, but I’ve heard they’ve removed most of the BSD stuff since it first came out. It still does things in a BSD way.

      • sweatshopking
      • 4 years ago

      Youre aware that windows phone has triple the market share in phones vs Linux on the desktop? How quickly do you think wp is going to suddenly take over?

        • Deanjo
        • 4 years ago

        Again with your word perfect reference ….

    • SHOES
    • 4 years ago

    Hopefully this will allow vendors the manpower to publish better quality drivers.

      • Zizy
      • 4 years ago

      Yup, this will indeed allow vendors to do the critical restructuring.
      ((firing old OS driver teams and giving bonuses to the C-people and board))

      • UnfriendlyFire
      • 4 years ago

      My laptop still has a firmware bug that causes Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 to crash if the laptop is brought out of hibernate or sleep mode.

    • NTMBK
    • 4 years ago

    Just install the damn update already. Remember to untick all the “you have permission to spy on me” boxes, and you’ll be fine.

      • BlackDove
      • 4 years ago

      Those dont do anything and the data collection continues regardless of user settings in all versions but Enterprise.

        • nanoflower
        • 4 years ago

        Do you have proof that this is the case? If so please provide a link to said proof.

          • BlackDove
          • 4 years ago

          [url<]http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/11/02/microsoft-confirms-unstoppable-windows-10-tracking/#2715e4857a0b5a119c1d2f4a[/url<]

            • Goofus Maximus
            • 4 years ago

            Your link leads me to an endless parade of “Welcome to Forbes. You seem to be running an adblocker” message. I’m not running an adblocker.

            Forbes evidently wants my data too.

            I don’t care. It’s silly to be worried about MS getting what we’ve already freely given to Google and Facebook of our own will.

            That said, MS’ strongarm tactics will be the death of them. Windows 8 was wildly popular right up until they tried strongarm tactics to force the use of their new interface. That is when things hit the fan for Windows 8. Now they are repeating these strongarm tactics for their whole line of Windows. Microsoft needs to take a course on customer relations.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            Maybe you have malware if youre getting that message and dont have ad block installed. They want your data. Better run Malwarebytes with rootkit scanning enabled.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            Dude, you sent us to a website we can’t read. I get the adblocker message too.

            3 downthumbs. I’d give more if only I could.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            You cant read Forbes website? Please learn how to use the internet.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            [quote<]"You cant read Forbes website? Please learn how to use the internet."[/quote<] Interesting insult. Be careful, lest you allow your pet problems with Microsoft to get in the way of basic communication with others.

            • VincentHanna
            • 4 years ago

            I’m kindof with him. I DO use an adblocker, and was able to see/read the article with little difficulty(simply click continue to forbes.com in the upper right)…

            In the meantime, I’ll [s<]summerize[/s<] quote the first half of the article. [quote<]Last week changes to the Windows 10 upgrade path mean it is going to become increasingly difficult for any non-techy users to avoid being pushed to Microsoft's new operating system. But given Windows 10 is better than Windows 7 and Windows 8, why would that be a problem? Because of policies like this… Speaking to PC World, Microsoft Corporate Vice President Joe Belfiore explained that Windows 10 is constantly tracking how it operates and how you are using it and sending that information back to Microsoft by default. More importantly he also confirmed that, despite offering some options to turn elements of tracking off, core data collection simply cannot be stopped: “In the cases where we’ve not provided options, we feel that those things have to do with the health of the system,” he said. “In the case of knowing that our system that we’ve created is crashing, or is having serious performance problems, we view that as so helpful to the ecosystem and so not an issue of personal privacy, that today we collect that data so that we make that experience better for everyone.” This backs up [url=http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/<]detailed data[/url<] that some had chosen to dismiss as conspiracy theories.[/quote<]

            • Goofus Maximus
            • 4 years ago

            Thanks for quoting it. It’s interesting that Forbes lets you, who HAS and adblocker, to get through, while it sends me, who has no adblocker through an infinite loop of “you have an adblocker” messages.

            And, yes, it is the strongarm tactics, rather than the data collection (which is helpful to them in squashing bugs quicker), which your credit card, smartphone, ISP, search, and social media sites also collect, sometimes to an even greater extent, which will come back to bite them.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            Whats wrong with your browser?

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            Well now I use an adblocker too, so nothing at all.

            Had to because they’re ruining the internet with slow loading ads and auto-playing videos.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            Thank you from me too for quoting it.

            • NeelyCam
            • 4 years ago

            Huh? The link worked fine for me. (Chrome, no adblock)

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            Probably all the malware they have installed.

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            Yep. Backed off a Forbes article because of their strongarming tactics myse!f.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            I agree. I have an Investor’s Business Daily subscription, and that’s enough paywalls for me.

        • Ryhadar
        • 4 years ago

        This has some truth to it but to propose that the settings do nothing is ignorant. It is true that you can not stop all the data collection about your machine using the built in settings alone. For most editions of windows your machine, at a minimum, will send a “basic” telemetry report to Microsoft.

        However, the user [b<]can[/b<] modify settings to control how much extra data gets sent to Microsoft. The differences between the "Full" (default) telemetry setting and "Basic" are significant, for example. Microsoft provides a great resource for enabling/disabling/tweaking the data it collects in this article here: [url<]https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208%28v=vs.85%29.aspx[/url<] I encourage you to read the full article but if you only are interested in telemetry settings and how each level differs you can read later on in the document here: [url<]https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#BKMK_UTC[/url<]

          • BlackDove
          • 4 years ago

          They can reactivate any of the things you disable with an update that you cant block too. Read the terms. If its on a Windows 10 machine they have the right to analyze and forward it.

            • Ryhadar
            • 4 years ago

            By terms are you referring to:
            – Windows 10 License terms: [url<]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseTerms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm[/url<] - Microsoft Services Agreement: [url<]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/[/url<] - Microsoft Privacy Statement: [url<]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx[/url<] I can not find any section that says that Microsoft has the right to change settings that you have made without your consent. In fact, I believe this is the reason Threshold 2 (update 1511) was pulled because the update inadvertently reverted privacy settings. However, please provide the section you think says this as I would very much like to read it.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            a. We may change these Terms at any time, and we’ll tell you when we do. Using the Services after the changes become effective means you agree to the new terms. If you don’t agree to the new terms, you must stop using the Services, close your Microsoft account and/or Skype account and, if you are a parent or guardian, help your minor child close his or her Microsoft account or Skype account.

            b. Sometimes you’ll need software updates to keep using the Services. We may automatically check your version of the software and download software updates or configuration changes, including those that prevent you from accessing the Services, playing counterfeit games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices. You may also be required to update the software to continue using the Services. Such updates are subject to these Terms unless other terms accompany the updates, in which case, those other terms apply. Microsoft isn’t obligated to make any updates available and we don’t guarantee that we will support the version of the system for which you licensed the software.

            c. Additionally, there may be times when we need to remove or change features or functionality of the Service or stop providing a Service or access to Third-Party Apps and Services altogether.

            Section A they make it clear that the terms for 10 can change at any time. Sections B and C talks about changing configuration. Its intentionally vaguely worded, like the entire terms are.

            • Ryhadar
            • 4 years ago

            Ah okay, so the Microsoft Services Agreement then. I thought so. I’m not a lawyer (are you?), but I don’t think your analysis of these terms is accurate. So I do want to add my two cents.

            Section a): Yes they can change the services agreement at any time. They also mention that they will tell you about it. Wrong or right, you do realize that most software service agreements are written with a line like this, correct?

            Section b & c): I’ll give you that the terms are vague, though I would argue that that is an artifact of this service agreement intending to cover all of Microsoft’s services. But you’re right they do mention changing software configuration. As I am a software dev, “software configuration” does not mean “user settings” in my mind. Usually this refers to an application’s configuration file(s). Meaning today software X may point to endpoint A but in the future they have the right to change that to endpoint B. Since it’s not clear (as you said) I can’t say for certain.

            [b<]But all of the points from this agreement are essentially moot[/b<]. Have a look at the services covered by this agreement: [url<]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/#serviceslist[/url<] At no point is Windows or, more specifically, Windows 10 mentioned here. Parts of the operating system are, such as Cortana and Windows Store but Windows is never called out. Meaning that for most of the operating system this agreement does not apply. Now realistically, Microsoft has every opportunity to rip out whatever they want from Windows 10 with updates. Same way they did with Windows 8.1, 7, Vista, XP... And if that's your worry then pick any operating system you want and just disable updates. Microsoft does provide ways to block certain updates too with a tool if you wanted to go that route, even if it's not baked into windows 10: [url<]https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930[/url<] I'd love to hear about your choice too. And if/when Microsoft rips out privacy settings starts stealing all of my photos, my social security number, and my other personal identifiable information without my consent I'll be right there with you calling them out. But until then, please, [i<]please[/i<], [i<][b<]PLEASE[/b<][/i<] stop spreading misinformation.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            How would you know if they had? They have the right to search through, analyze and forward your “content” at any time without your consent in 10. Did you read that part of the terms?

            • Andrew Lauritzen
            • 4 years ago

            Your understanding of the terms is incorrect. It’s at the level of someone just pulling single phrases out of context and I’m not sure if you’re intentionally doing it based on some agenda or if you really don’t understand the documents (which is okay if you’re not used to reading such things).

            In any case you should really thank Ryhadar for taking the time to lay it out for you and listen to what he says. His understanding of the terms if far more accurate than yours.

            In this discussion it’s always important to talk about specifically what data is being sent with what contents. If someone has a problem with the basic telemetry data (crash dumps, etc) that is sent to Microsoft that’s probably something that should have been brought up many years ago when it was introduced (Vista? XP? I don’t remember exactly when).

            Grabbing those parts of the terms out of context and trying to claim they apply to every file on your PC or something is ludicrous and not helpful, so let’s keep the discussion related to actual facts here rather than just amplifying misguided media hysteria. Good examples here do include confusing the Microsoft services stuff (i.e. all stuff you choose to use in the same way you choose to use Google or Apple services or whatever) with the core OS stuff.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            Its intentional. He’s had it explained like literally a dozen times, but keeps insisting the same thing regardless.

            • ermo
            • 4 years ago

            Methinks we need a tinfoil hat icon alongside the current gold and silver subscriber icons…

      • odizzido
      • 4 years ago

      I’d rather not have my computer reset whenever it feels like it.

        • w76
        • 4 years ago

        It’s infuriating when it happens and you leave something open or a process running. Win10 don’t care.

        It almost eliminates the need for a UPS. What’s the difference between a power outage when you’re not at the desk or Win10 deciding it feels like an update?

          • Ryhadar
          • 4 years ago

          If you have Windows 10 Pro I think you can disable the auto restart with the group policy editor. Go here: [url<]https://technet.microsoft.com/library/cc720539%28v=ws.10%29.aspx[/url<] Then search for the section labeled "No Auto-restart for Scheduled Automatic Update Installation Options". You will want to find this setting in the group policy editor and then set it to "Enabled" (not "Disabled"). I haven't tried this myself so I can't say for certain if this works. But I have modified other Windows Update settings using group policy and they have worked great.

            • w76
            • 4 years ago

            I’ll try that soon as I get home, thank you! Not for the first time I’m glad I got upgraded to Pro.

            • BIF
            • 4 years ago

            I don’t know if “no auto restart” works via the GPE, but I did use the Group Policy Editor to prevent my Windows 10 laptop from automatically [i<]updating[/i<]. I just got tired of the graphic driver "crashing" and restarting. Never crashed the laptop itself, but it took a few seconds every time it did that and that was ANNOYING. So now, the laptop obeys ME. Now there's a little "balloon" inside the system tray that tells me when I have updates to apply. And I DON'T feel any sense of urgency about doing this. I might update once per week, or maybe just ignore the damned thing until I'm thinking about booting for whatever other reason anyway; then I'll apply the backlog of updates. If any need a reboot, well I'm ready.

            • Ninjitsu
            • 4 years ago

            I have Win 7 HP, so i’m probably going to skip Win 10.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            Then you’ll be using 7 for a looooonnnggg time

        • Chrispy_
        • 4 years ago

        You mean reset as in “returned to factory defaults with all your preferences deleted”?

        I’ve found that the major updates to 10 actually undo several of your windows preferences by resetting all your file associations to Microsoft Metro Apps rather than your purchased desktop software, and it’s added junk back to the start menu that users intentionally removed.

        What’s the point of allowing customisation if you’re going to undo it all every update?

          • BIF
          • 4 years ago

          He meant “reboot”.

        • sweatshopking
        • 4 years ago

        People always say this, but I’ve literally NEVER EVER had this happen. I dont understand it

    • TwoEars
    • 4 years ago

    The real issue here is enterprise.

    Corporations buy new computers from Dell and HP and these new computers will to a large extent come with Skylake, like a lot of other machines of course. But unlike a lot of the new machines which are sold to consumers (with windows 10) a lot of businesses are still runing Windows 7, and rightly so.

      • Deanjo
      • 4 years ago

      [quote<]But unlike a lot of the new machines which are sold to consumers (with windows 10) a lot of businesses are still runing Windows 7, and rightly so.[/quote<] That is correct and with good reason. Several enterprise clients have specialized/customized software that makes it quite difficult to migrate to newer versions of Windows.

        • TwoEars
        • 4 years ago

        Exactly. Too much custom software that no one dares mess with. Very few companies upgrade to new software if the old software is working fine and does the job.

        • Tumbleweed
        • 4 years ago

        My definition of “good reason” seems to be rather different than yours.

          • Deanjo
          • 4 years ago

          Then I suspect your “good reason” has nothing really to do with the enterprise environment.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            Scotiabank is massively profitable and still running XP. They dont have a good reason. Many companies are the same.

            • Deanjo
            • 4 years ago

            Monetary cost of the software isn’t a major factor for enterprise . Verification and development of software to maintain compatibility, auditing of security policies and time to deploy and implement are all the main concerns in the enterprise sector. Most of these networks have been added on to regularly, some spanning a couple of decades or more.

            MS kind of screwed up by killing XP support before Windows 10 rolled out if they wanted everyone to upgrade to 10. Many corporations just finished upgrading to 7 or 8 from XP and to expect them to do another major rollout in less than 2 years is asking a hell of a lot.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            Of course it is cost. If it wasn’t cost they’d just hire more people to do all those things all the time.

            • Deanjo
            • 4 years ago

            If it was cost they would have moved over to another OS like linux eons ago.

            Cost is more of a concern for the small business.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            people aren’t using linux on the desktop because it sucks, not because of cost. The reality is that in the end, it’s cost, whether costs in deployments, testing, etc. that’s all money they don’t want to spend if they don’t have to. You’re right that small businesses have a cash flow problem, but cost is a problem for all.

            • Deanjo
            • 4 years ago

            It doesn’t suck, many have been using it for years pain free (unlike windows). Again cost is not the major issue with enterprise. It is the time, effort, and making sure that everything works fine (which is not usually the case when upgrading enterprise deployments).

            For example, just recently I aided a local company, not a big network, 100 seats or so to Windows 10. Unfortunately not all machines were able to upgrade because of the brand new Cisco voip system they had installed. It worked in Win 7, Win 8/8.1 just fine with zero issues. Now this phone system was 200k phones system from a tier 1 provider but because the software would not run under Windows 10, those who had to run it, could not be upgraded until Cisco gets around to getting it working under Win 10 (incidentally works 100% under linux and OS X running the latest versions).

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            All one percent. And Windows phone has highly satisfied users too. It also must be awesome.

            You cant upgrade them because Cisco didn’t spend the money to make it work. Whether Cisco, Scotiabank, etc. It’s all money, but you seem unable to get my point so, whatever.

            • End User
            • 4 years ago

            Wow. A bank running on a vulnerable OS. That sounds like an epic failure just waiting to happen.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            I was slightly surprised, but since almost every ATM is XP, not that surprising.

      • ronch
      • 4 years ago

      Also, a lot of businesses use custom software written and validated for a particular OS. So if new hardware won’t support an old OS (most likely through a lack of drivers) and their custom software doesn’t play nice with a new OS, it’s gonna hit the company hard. This is one reason (and a major one too) why companies aren’t too keen in buying new hardware. If their systems run well enough, why would they?

        • Mr Bill
        • 4 years ago

        I have two instruments running Win XP Pro, one running NT 4.0, and two running Win 95 because the software and hardware require it. No higher OS is supportable.

          • willmore
          • 4 years ago

          In the late 90’s, I had to scrounge together parts to make an XT to replace a failed system in a piece of lab equipment my GF was using to finish up her PhD.

          Old machines doing a job, not getting in anyones way, not connected to any networks have no need for new software.

          • JustAnEngineer
          • 4 years ago

          Bad programming has a lasting legacy, eh?

            • Mr Bill
            • 4 years ago

            A $70K-100K GC or GC-MS has a usable lifetime of 20 years or more. Upgrading the OS requires purchasing a newer license for HP chemstation and probably new communications cards and it runs into thousands of dollars. Even though the hardware is EOL, there is a thriving market for the old hardware because its durable and cheaper to replace with refurbished parts than it is to buy a new system. Its easier to isolate the lab network and just let each PC run its own instrument.

            • Mr Bill
            • 4 years ago

            [url=http://www.agilent.com/cs/library/Support/Documents/F05030.pdf<]HP Chemstation Upgrade Matrix[/url<]. Its really that the programming is hardware driven and people don't want to move to new hardware if the old hardware can make the same money. MS is moving the OS target way faster than vendors are moving the hardware target.

            • BobbinThreadbare
            • 4 years ago

            If they wrote their programs according the MS standards it should work on modern 32bit Windows.

            • JustAnEngineer
            • 4 years ago

            Much more so than Microsoft, HP is frequently guilty of not providing updated drivers for their old equipment as a way to try to encourage you to buy their new equipment instead of continuing to use the old stuff.

      • Chrispy_
      • 4 years ago

      [quote<]businesses are still runing Windows 7, and rightly so[/quote<] Ain't that the truth. I've been running 10 at work since the earliest Technet version sprang up and it's been a non-stop compatibility nightmare for a whole bunch of software. Some of it is non-optional like accounts, payroll, government-contract etc. Microsoft can't strongarm companies, because they're bound by contract or otherwise to specific things that don't have W10-compatible replacements. The enterprise response will be the exact opposite of what Microsoft wants, which is to elevate W7 to martyrdom and continue using it long after Microsoft kill it off, officially.

      • south side sammy
      • 4 years ago

      and you’d be surprised the amount of XP machines still in use by business.

      • TheMonkeyKing
      • 4 years ago

      Yes, totally agree. Biological sciences hate changes to their computing environment because each change sparks a new round of validation and testing — just on the systems. Heck, the move to using IE 11 is going to cause havok with some of the interfaces standardized only on IE 8.

    • Shouefref
    • 4 years ago

    And we keep on buying ….

      • Krogoth
      • 4 years ago

      Commercial software has always been full of planned obsolescence since Day 1.

        • Deanjo
        • 4 years ago

        Not true, some commercial software is on a rolling release model.

          • nanoflower
          • 4 years ago

          But if you skipped the new releases and had problems they would tell you to upgrade. So I’m not sure what your point is.

            • Deanjo
            • 4 years ago

            I don’t think you know what I mean by a rolling release. Some software is updated on a regular basis (I know a few commercial apps that are updated several times a week) and saying “Oh ok, upgrade your entire infrastructure for tomorrows update” is not a realistic option. That software is expected to run the newest release of the software all the time for support.

      • SkyWarrior
      • 4 years ago

      Most of the time windows is not our choice to begin with. It is what we are stuck at because of work /enterprise environment.

      If it were me to start a business I won’t let a single MS software to be used with regular computers. (Except for those systems that has to run a particular machine of interest and yet those systems will be completely taken off of the internetz….)

      • Hinton
      • 4 years ago

      Liar. You haven’t bought Windows 10.

      Fucking concern trolls.

        • JustAnEngineer
        • 4 years ago

        I [b<]did[/b<] buy Windows 10 when I built a new PC in October. The other six times that I installed it, Microsoft gave it to me as a free upgrade from an older OS. Windows 10 is fine for everyone, if the tinfoil hat luddites would get with the program.

          • BlackDove
          • 4 years ago

          Lol “tin foil hat Luddites”? You mean people who dont want to use an operating system that has terms that state that all of your data and any data that passes through a windows 10 PC can be analyzed and forwarded to unnamed third parties?

          Its not “fine for everyone”. Youve got it backwards. People like you need to get with the evolutionary fitness landscape.

            • w76
            • 4 years ago

            Evolutionary fitness? I kind of doubt, unless the NSA does go ‘turn-key’ dystopian security state, OS selection will make anyone more or less likely to die. However, the cool kids tell me Apple can get you laid, so there is that.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            Evolutionary fitness landscapes are models that show if a group is behaving adaptively or nonadaptively.

            Im saying that his mentality is nonadaptive, and his insults directed at anyone who doesnt want to AGREE to be spied on confirms it.

          • nanoflower
          • 4 years ago

          I think people would be much happier if Msft had not made so many default choices that shared some of your information with Msft and some of your bandwidth with the Internet. Make the default to turn those things off and then specifically ask the user if the OS can enable them (forcing Msft to come up with a great sales pitch.) If that had been the default setup many of the concerns people had would have gone away, and all but the most rabid Msft haters would have given them credit for not assuming the computer/bandwidth is theirs to do with as they may.

            • BlackDove
            • 4 years ago

            I totally forgot that its set to torrent updates to random people on the internet by default lol.

            And you cant ACTUALLY turn the telemetry off unless you have Windows 10 Enterprise, so having them on or off by default doesnt actually change anything.

    • SkyWarrior
    • 4 years ago

    [quote<]There is a caveat for those running older versions of Windows on systems with Skylake CPUs, though. After July 2017, Microsoft will only release the most critical security updates for those systems. In the event a Skylake-compatible update would cause problems for other systems running Windows 7 or 8.1, Microsoft will not fix or release the patch at all. Those who want full support from Microsoft after July 2017 will need to upgrade their Skylake system to Windows 10.[/quote<] Am I the only one running into circles with this paragraph? If I have a skylake system and using windows 8.1 or earlier ms will not provide a patch for me after july 2017 but those patches that were sent normally would fit pre-skylake systems properly right? If so why would a skylake-compatible patch cause any issues on a skylake system or pre-skylake system ? Or does this mean if a patch compatible with skylake on older OS breaks apart things for pre-skylake systems MS won't do anything about it ? Also does this have anything to do with the FPU bug in Skylake CPUs? I need to get out of windows ASAP....

      • Krogoth
      • 4 years ago

      Microsoft will not go of its way to resolve an issue that only affects older software platforms on current and future hardware.

      The PR person who did the announcement is a bloody idiot. Microsoft shot themselves in the legs on handling this. They should have just drop 7 and Vista since they are already going EOL.
      They should continue support on 8/8.1 until they reach EOL, but I suspect the move was motivated by the fact that Microsoft wants to bury their misstep with 8/8.1 with the strong[s<]arming[/s<] push of Windows 10 "Free" upgrade program.

        • rechicero
        • 4 years ago

        Or maybe they should make a OS people actually like? Just and idea…

          • Krogoth
          • 4 years ago

          Windows 10 is quite useable and it is what Windows 8 should have been.

          The primary issue with Window 10 is that there are eye-rising concerns with its EULA which openly state that Microsoft can snoop on any data on your system to third-party problems (Advertisers/Marketers). I blame social media networks for setting the precedence for this.

          • DancinJack
          • 4 years ago

          You’re right. Windows has no marketshare. Maybe they should do something to get people to buy it…

      • Topinio
      • 4 years ago

      The situation seems to (currently) be:

      a) pre-Skylake CPU and Windows pre-10 = all patches including all security patches until OS is EOL
      b) Skylake CPU and Windows pre-10 = all patches until 17th July 2017, then only the “most critical” security patches
      c) Skylake CPU and Windows 10 = all patches including all security patches until OS is EOL
      d) post-Skylake CPU and Windows pre-10 = unsupported, possibly will get the “most critical” security patches
      e) post-Skylake CPU and Windows 10 = all patches including all security patches until OS is EOL

      Microsoft seems to be using its customers’ requirements for security as leverage to accelerate the transition of Windows 10 into production, by making the existing Windows 7 image higher risk than it would otherwise be.

      • Ryu Connor
      • 4 years ago

      Skylake + Windows 7 or 8.1 will get security patches until 2020 or 2023 respectively.

      After July of 2017, If one of those patches has an incompatibility with Skylake hardware (an incompatibility between the security patch, kernel, and hardware) Microsoft will not fix the underlying problem and will not issue that specific patch to Skylake users. You will keep getting the other security patches though.

      That outcome is unlikely, but Microsoft is giving fair warning to you now.

        • SkyWarrior
        • 4 years ago

        So that the wording should be

        ” In the event a Skylake-[b<]in[/b<]compatible update would cause problems for other, older systems running Windows 7 or 8.1, Microsoft will not fix or release the patch at all for Skylake system" That's why I started chasing my tail.

    • DancinJack
    • 4 years ago

    Ruh roh. This comment section is going to be ugly.

      • ronch
      • 4 years ago

      And that’s even without TopHatKiller hijacking the comments section.

        • Srsly_Bro
        • 4 years ago

        did he get banned?

          • ronch
          • 4 years ago

          He was frickin’ nuts when he first got here, but trying to fit in a new crowd by being obnoxious and trying too hard to look cool and witty is never a good way to make a good first impression. He’s learned to tone down a bit but he still reminds me of a certain DC comics villain.

            • DancinJack
            • 4 years ago

            He lives on.

            [url<]https://techreport.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78471[/url<]

            • ronch
            • 4 years ago

            And it looks like he’s never posted anything in the forums. Zilch. Nada. Nil. The bloke only wants to post non-sensical stuff in the comments sections. Someone should suggest to him to join the R&P forums. Should be fun.

            • sweatshopking
            • 4 years ago

            I didnt post in the forums for years. I love thk.

            • Srsly_Bro
            • 4 years ago

            i dont think i’ve ever posted in the forums either.

            • NeelyCam
            • 4 years ago

            I rarely post anything in the forums. I like the format in the comments section much better. Easier to see who replied to who, and keep track of sub-discussions.

            • mcarson09
            • 4 years ago

            Truth be told OCN, XS, and HardForum are the better tech forums to post at. The reason to have an account here is to post in the comment section.

            • NeelyCam
            • 4 years ago

            [quote<]he still reminds me of a certain DC comics villain.[/quote<] LOL

    • Krogoth
    • 4 years ago

    Microsoft is simply not providing support or fix any issue that may occur with future hardware platforms that try to run older OS. They did this with the transition from 9x to NT.

    There will still be third-party support from various vendors. To be frank, if you going to build a new system that is post-Skylake. You are doing yourself a disservice by throwing aging software on it.

    Skylake runs fine on Vista, 7 and 8/8.1 at this time. FYI Window 10 is still a NT 6.x product. You just miss on support for the new power states and OS taking advantage of the newer instruction sets.

      • AJSB
      • 4 years ago

      Exactly, if your *really* want so, you can even run XP in it, no special issues.

      Of course you will need a dGPU to play games in such case but that’s the only “limitation”…besides almost all new titles not support XP.
      The lack of official support doesn’t mean per se that they don’t play on XP, i know several cases where they play no matter demand at least VISTA (but if they are still compatible w/ Dx9 and 32bit Windows, they work (examples w/ many F2P games).

      • BlackDove
      • 4 years ago

      Aging software thats basically identical to 10 like 8.1?

        • Krogoth
        • 4 years ago

        Windows 10 has a number of evolutionary changes from 8.1 and 8, however they are all can trace their code back to Longhorn a.k.a NT 6.x .

        • AJSB
        • 4 years ago

        I guess so, however, i was not talking about the (de)merits of XP vs 10 or 8.x, only about if it will be possible or not use it.

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