Those 27-inch IPS displays from Korea are for real

If you frequent our forums or other PC enthusiast-focused corners of the web, you may have heard the whispers about the new breed of monitors being sold in Korea under various brand names for astonishingly low prices. They sound almost too good to be true: expansive 27″ displays at the formidable resolution of 2560×1440 selling for peanuts, between $300 and $400, well under half the price of a similar display from the likes of Dell.

Not only that, but they’re purportedly based on LCD panels that use IPS technology, the standard for high-end displays. IPS panels typically offer much better color reproduction and much wider viewing angles than the cheap TN panels that have dominated the low end of the monitor market—and nearly the entire laptop market—for several dark, sad years. (One day, we will look back on the TN’s panel dominance and, heh, be unable to make out the image.)

Although I already have some very nice 30″ displays here in Damage Labs for testing and productivity, I should have known from the outset that I was destined to rendezvous with one of these 27″ monitors. After all, I evidently can’t stop talking about the benefits of big displays, high-megapixel gaming, and IPS panel technology; our podcast is littered with me blathering on about those things. Fittingly, then, friends and acquaintances kept asking me about the Korean monitors, until finally one morning, I received yet another IM asking my opinion of an eBay listing and couldn’t stop myself. I ordered the sucker straight up, without even consulting the forum threads for advice on which brand to get.

I didn’t know what I was getting myself into at the time, and really, I still don’t know entirely. There are forum threads packed with information about these monitors, but they don’t tend to cite sources for any of that info. I’m sure there’s good documentation in Korean, but I don’t read the language, so it’s hard to say.

That leaves us with all sorts of interesting hearsay about these displays. They say the panels themselves are manufactured by LG, a major name in the business. They say the same panels are used in Apple’s Thunderbolt-enabled Cinema Display. They say if you order one from the right seller, he will arrive at your house, riding a unicorn made of bacon, in order to deliver it. When you hook it up and turn it on, the monitor will shoot rainbows directly into your rods and cones, triggering a fit of ecstasy unprecedented in human history.

At least some of that info is probably correct. For instance, I can confirm the bit about the rainbows personally. Other details may not be accurate.

What matters most is the basic proposition, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that it’s very real: these are truly excellent panels at a ridiculously, embarrassingly low price. I’d say every self-respecting PC enthusiast should get one, except there are some real risks you’ll want to consider before scouring the eBay listings and pressing the “Buy it now” button.

First things.. first

I ordered my monitor via an eBay listing like this one. The monitor is a “First” brand, model FSM-270YG LED. The deal is laid out there: you pay $337 for the monitor, and express shipping worldwide is included in the price. A tracking number will be provided, and the monitor should arrive within three to seven days of your purchase. I had some trepidation about buying something from some anonymous dude on the other side of the globe, but the seller had overwhelmingly positive feedback, so I doubted there would be a better source.

The buying experience was a little shaky at first. The listing promised a tracking number, but I didn’t receive one, even though the eBay status of the item changed to “shipped.” Then the monitor didn’t arrive within the seller’s stated delivery window, leaving me to sweat it out for a weekend before it showed up the following Monday in the hands of our local postman.

Fortunately, when the monitor did arrive, it was almost exactly as described in the eBay listing, with a sticker plastered across the front to confirm the basics: LED backlight, IPS panel tech with wide viewing angles (178° in either direction), and 2560×1440 resolution.

The connections around back are dead simple, with a single input for a dual-link DVI cable and audio in/out (since this monitor has internal speakers), along with a power input coming from the external power brick. New-fangled input types like DisplayPort and HDMI are nowhere to be found.

The stand on this puppy is solid enough, and it tilts through a decent range. It doesn’t pivot left to right, but the base is small enough and the monitor’s light enough I don’t mind. There’s no height adjustment, which is a bummer. Also, the potential to combine three of these things into a triple-display array makes we wish the stand would allow it to pivot into a portrait orientation, but that’s a capability even my expensive Dell 30″ monitors lack (though at least one Korean brand offers this feature.)

You may be able to pull off some more exotic display configs using the four threaded mount points on the back of the monitor, which are purported to be compatible with VESA mounting hardware. Along those lines, the flat, bottom portion of the monitor’s base can be removed with a single thumbscrew. The clear plastic stalk that fits into it, though, seems to be there to stay. I haven’t sorted out how one would go about removing the stalk for a wall-mount setup, though it must be possible.

The monitor comes packaged with a solid-seeming dual-link DVI cable roughly five feet in length. The inclusion of a dual-link cable is important because any DVI cables you happen to have lying around are probably single-link only, if your spare parts bin is anything like typical. Dual-link DVI is fairly rare, but it’s required to support this monitor’s native resolution.

Since this is a Korean-market product, it ships with a different style of power connector than you’ll probably need. Fortunately, the seller thoughtfully included a travel adapter with a North American-style plug in the box with the monitor. Then again, I didn’t actually need it, since the three-prong connector in the power brick is compatible with any PC-style power cord.

So . . . how is it?

You’re probably ready for me to tell you about the rainbows of ecstasy shooting into my eye sockets, and I can testify, when I first turned on the display, that’s pretty much what happened. The visual impact upon firing up this baby is formidable. The pixel pitch is smaller than almost any other desktop display I own, and the glossy anti-glare coating on the screen doesn’t diffuse light like the coating on most older monitors. The result is awesome crispness and definition. The colors really pop, too, with none of the fakey over-saturation and lack of subtlety you’ll find on most TN panels. My eyes immediatelly began soaking up the fluid, crystalline eye candy and transmitting its sweetness to my brain. If you don’t want to be tempted to buy one of these things, do not look at one in the face. And especially do not browse through a series of beautiful 2560×1440 images at InterfaceLift. If you do, you’re doomed.

Since my neurosis requires me to pick apart anything good and find its flaws immediately, my very next task was to fire up the LCD tester tool here and to use the all-white and all-black image tools to check for dead or stuck pixels. After all, getting a panel full of dead pixels is one of the great risks of ordering an LCD monitor from the other side of the world. Returning it would be a huge, expensive pain in the rear. Plus, the scuttlebutt is that these panels are secondary stock, the ones rejected by Apple and such due to imperfections. True or not, I dunno. The eBay listing for my monitor outlined the apparent Korean-market standards for dead pixels, and they sound fairly solid: if there’s more than one bad pixel in the center region of the screen or more than five elsewhere, and the display won’t pass muster. Still, one never knows.

Now, I don’t want to overstate the risk here. A few dead pixels in an array of 3.7 million of ’em isn’t really that big of a deal. Plus, as far as I’m concerned, every pixel on a TN panel is a bad pixel. A slightly gimpy IPS display is still a vast improvement over what most folks use every day. We must keep these things in perspective.

With that said, I’m very happy to report that this monitor has, believe it or not, zero dead pixels. As far as I can tell, there’s not a single dead or stuck sub-pixel on the entire panel.

Of course, that happy news didn’t divert me from searching for a deal-killer problem. Heck, I came prepared. You see, shortly after I mentioned on Twitter that I’d ordered one of these monitors, my friend Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow and SuperUser fame decided to order three of them on my “recommendation.” Vaguely terrified, I tried to explain that my review was still forthcoming, but he wasn’t dissuaded. Then, two of his monitors arrived before mine, and he reported something jarring: the buttons on the front of the display, presumably intended to adjust the picture, appeared to do nothing.

Whoops.

The complete lack of brightness control, combined with a standard-issue too-high default brightness made this problem a total show-stopper for him. By the time my monitor shipment arrived, all I could hope for was that somehow, both of his were broken but mine wouldn’t be.

No such luck. Once I had the display connected, I immediately attempted to adjust the picture with the control buttons. Although the power light flashed when I held down a button, nothing else appeared to happen. The listing had promised an “easy & convenient OSD,” but no on-screen display was evident at any point—not when I pushed the buttons, not when I powered on the display, not even when there was no DVI signal attached. And yes, the default brightness seared my retinas, locking in their flavorful juices. The ecstasy rainbows were on overdrive, too powerful for my biological systems to withstand over time.

Worse, I couldn’t decipher the markings on the apparently faulty buttons to discern what they were originally intended to do. The labels are entirely in Korean, as is the product manual.

I futzed around with using the video card control panel to tweak the display brightness, but that’s a patchwork solution at best, since the panel is simply dampening the output of a too-bright backlight. You’re sacrificing the display’s dynamic range by modifying the brightness in software, and in my experience, you can only drop the brightness by about 10% before quality is obviously sacrificed.

In a last-ditch effort to redeem the situation, I contacted the eBay seller to see what he had to say for himself:

I received the 27″ LCD monitor in good condition, except the control buttons on the front panel don’t work and the on-screen display doesn’t appear. Is there a way to adjust the brightness and contrast on this monitor? How can the user access the OSD?

His reply was enlightening.

thanks for the message…
you are worrying about the control button of the monitor(OSD)..

the front side, there is the button of the brightness, volume, and on/off button..

the second and third buttons are about the brightness

and the fourth and fiveth are about the volume,

there is not the other function of the osd..it is automately ajust itself..

not only this monitor but also all of 2560 X 1440 monitor doing like this

and if you have anymore troblue please contact me!!!

have a nice day!!!!

Now I had a map to the supposed button functions, which was an important start. Also, his message revealed that he equated the monitor’s control buttons with the OSD. This dude clearly had no idea that the acronym “OSD” stands for “on-screen display.”

What’s more, there’s evidently no need for an OSD with menus to navigate, since the only available adjustments are brightness and volume. I don’t consider that a big problem since my Dell 3007WFP-HC also lacks an OSD and tuning controls, and it has been exemplary in everyday use for years. The color tweaks in video card control panels can handle the rest of the adjustments one might need.

There was still the small matter that pressing the buttons on the front of the display didn’t, you know, appear to change anything.

But I was on the trail of this mystery. My next step was to connect an audio source to the back of the monitor and see whether the volume controls would work. I fired up some music and twiddled with volume buttons, and at first, nothing seemed to be happening. However, once I held the volume-down button long enough, the speaker volume seemed to decrease. Excited, I mashed the volume-up button and held it, and the sound level rose. Control at last! I fairly quickly realized that the flashing power LED above the buttons was an indicator: the faster or slower it flashed, the higher or lower the volume. At the end of the range, the light glowed solid blue.

Armed with a sense of how the buttons worked, I was soon adjusting the display brightness up and down, as well. I was able to dim the display to an acceptable level for the cave-like Damage Labs, and it wasn’t even at the lowest possible setting.

I contacted the seller with my thanks and suggested he remove the term “OSD” from his future listings for this monitor. He seemed to understand and thanked me, and I gave him a nice rating on eBay, in spite of the snafu in the listing. With that issue settled, I was free to use the monitor without worrying about show-stopping problems. Or was I?

Versus my big Dell

Next, I set up the new monitor directly next to my 30″ Dell for some quick comparisons. I should say here that I had no intention of delivering a data-rich review of this thing. The guys up north have the fancy colorimeter that produces color temperature and gamut readings. Here in Missouri, I figured the hillbilly approach would do. My plan was simply to eyeball the Korean 27″ versus the best display on hand and tell you what I saw.

If you’re thinking it’s unfair to stick a $300 monitor next to one that costs a grand and do a direct comparison, well, you’re probably right. Side by side, the Dell has some strengths that make it, clearly, the better display. Although I like the smaller pixel pitch on the 27″ monitor, the big Dell’s larger screen area is an obvious win, as is the 16:10 aspect ratio that grants it some additional vertical pixels. Sitting at the Windows desktop with TR pulled up in a browser window, the Dell’s default color tuning looks superior to my eye. Whites on the 27″ panel have a little too much green or yellow in them, and no amount of tuning in the Nvidia color mixer allowed me to reach a compromise that looked as good as the Dell’s defaults.

Also, to my surprise, I found that I prefer the Dell’s matte anti-glare coating. I have long been an advocate of glossy anti-glare coatings for laptops, because they extend battery life and improve sharpness over matte coatings. In this case, however, the Dell very effectively diffuses reflections from the lone window and overhead lights in Damage Labs—reflections that the 27″ panel shows all too clearly. I really enjoy the razor-sharp pixel clarity afforded by the glossy coating, but in this environment, the down side is hard to ignore. Of course, your mileage may vary. This is a pretty straightforward trade-off, after all, between sharpness and glare reduction.

Having said all of that, the biggest takeaway from my side-by-side comparison wasn’t that the Dell was superior; it was how incredibly narrow the gap is between the two displays, given their respective prices. The 27-incher may not be as large, but it still gives you that sense of freedom that comes with expansive display real estate. And you wouldn’t notice any weaknesses in the 27″ monitor’s color tuning or temperature without seeing the two displays side by side. When I moved the Korean monitor to another table against an adjacent wall, any sense of iffy white balance evaporated instantly.


First FSM-270YG backlight bleed


Dell 3007WFP-HC backlight bleed

Here’s a look at the amount of backlight bleed on the two screens. The FSM-270YG has a little more white soaking through in the top right, top left, and bottom right corners. However, the Dell has more bleed overall, particularly down the center of the panel. (Please forgive the reflection in the shot of the 27″ monitor. That’s a small sliver of a window that’s mostly covered. I couldn’t get rid of it entirely, and rather than move the display around, I figured I’d leave it in as an illustration of the reflections you may see with the glossy coating.) Overall, both displays are relatively decent on this front. The Korean cheapie doesn’t come out looking bad at all.

My respect for the 27″ IPS panel grew when I stepped through these Lagom LCD test patterns alongside the Dell. Both monitors offered near-ideal performance in most of the patterns, especialy those intended to tease out problems caused by analog display connections or post-processing routines running on an ASIC built into the monitor. That’s no surprise because both connect via DVI, and (as near as I can tell) the 27″ monitor lacks an internal chip for image scaling or OSD tuning, just like my older Dell 30″ does. The two monitors also exhibit generally excellent performance in the color contrast, gamma, and gray gradient patterns, with no apparent banding in the latter.

In the tests where the two displays really diverged, the FSM-270YG tended to outperform the Dell. The 27″ display offered near-ideal performance in the tests of both black levels and white saturation. Differing gray levels were consistently discernible among the patterns of near-black and near-white shades. The Dell handled the black level test well, but it suffered in the white saturation test, where near-white colors tended to melt into one another.

Using a digital camera and an on-screen timer to capture differences in the response times between the two monitors in clone mode proved to be tricky. Generally, as you can see above, they looked to be approximately equal. However, not all of the pictures I took showed synced timers, despite the fact I was using a very fast shutter speed. The gap between the displays tended to vary. With some experimentation, I found that the monitor acting as the source display was usually ahead of the clone. The largest gap between the two was about 16 milliseconds, or the length of a single display refresh interval.

The fact that these two monitors are in a dead heat in response times comes as little surprise, since they both appear to lack an internal chip dedicated to scaling or other forms of image processing. Such chips enable all sorts of nice features, but they’re also one of the primary contributors to input lag. We haven’t measured these displays’ input lag in absolute terms, but we suspect they are substantially faster than your average LCD, by virtue of the fact that they don’t have an internal scaler or ASIC. (Neither one even scales up the 1920×1080 input from a single-link DVI connection to a full-screen resolution correctly.) This, er, non-feature should make them both excellent for gaming use, and the Dell 30″ has definitely proven its worth on that front over the years. From what I’ve seen so far, this 27″ wunderkind is just as good. And you won’t likely miss the scaler, since Radeons and GeForces both have excellent built-in image scaling that can be controlled via software.


Click for the full-sized image

By the way, if you’re not sold on the prospect of high-megapixel gaming, perhaps the image above will give you a sense of things. That’s a shot from Trine 2 at 2560×1440, and you can click to pull up the full-sized image. Many games these days, including this one, will run fluidly at this resolution on a single, reasonably decent video card. Having a monitor like this for gaming is a massive upgrade that should last you for years.

Geoff said, in his recent article on triple-display gaming, that he’d rather have three smaller, two-megapixels displays than a single large monitor like this one. The important thing to know about his opinion on this matter is that it’s wrong. He just hasn’t spent enough quality time with the right Korean import.

Then again, I’m sure the multi-monitor fanatics will suggest that buying three of these 27″ displays and running them in a wrap-around layout would be an even better option than a single display. Can’t exactly dispute that notion.

A few more discoveries

After comparing the FSM-270YG to my pricey Dell 30″ monitor, I was pretty well sold on its value proposition. Unfortunately, I uncovered a couple more quirks of note in further use.

First, I discovered that this monitor doesn’t support HDCP, the copy-protection scheme for high-def digital displays. Even the Dell 30″, with no scaler ASIC, offers HDCP support. What that means is that certain copy-protected content, including commercial Blu-ray discs and some protected cable TV programs, can’t be played back on this display. For some folks, that omission may be a show-stopper, particularly if you use your computer for movie watching or the like. If, like me, your desktop computer use is confined to productivity and gaming, it’s probably never going to be an issue. Does seem kind of a shame, though, since the built-in speakers are actually halfway decent, as long as you don’t need thumpy bass. (Or, you know, any other sort of bass, really.) I had considered using the VESA mounts to put this baby on my bedroom wall as part of a media center extender setup. Without HDCP support, that’s not gonna happen.

The next quirk didn’t become obvious until I sat down to bang away on this review. I figured I should write the review using the monitor as my main display, a cheesy provision that I often apply to these tasks. In this case, the cheese turned out to be, er, fruitful, in a strange but potentially tasty mix of metaphors.

I usually edit with a triple-window setup: notes in one window, my editor in the next, and the web page layout in the third. Initially, I dialed back the monitor’s brightness so the white backdrops of the windows wasn’t blinding. Then, as I moved windows around from left to right arranging everything, I noticed something odd. As I dragged it from left to right, the editor window went from just-right white to too bright. I grabbed the window again and pulled it around. Over on the right side of the screen, its brightness was ideal. When I slid it to the left, it became too bright again.

Futzing with the display brightness and altering the ambient light conditions was no help. This monitor simply has a problem with uniformity in its white levels, and the difference is pretty pronounced from one side of the screen to the other. Worse, now that I’ve seen it, I can’t un-see it. This is easily the display’s biggest weakness, in my book.

Is it a show-stopper? Nah, probably not. You’d never notice it when gaming, and some folks probably wouldn’t notice it in any event. This issue isn’t as a big a problem as, say, the everyday operation of a normal TN panel. Still, it’s an annoying quirk, one that I’ve not really noticed in any other LCD display I own.

So what’s the verdict?

Even with those last couple of quirks uncovered, I still feel like I won this thing in a drawing or something. $337 for a display of this quality is absolutely worth it, in my view. You just need to keep your eyes open to the risks going into the transaction, risks I hope I’ve illustrated in the preceding paragraphs. In many ways, grabbing a monitor like this one on the cheap from eBay is the ultimate tinkerer’s gambit. It’s risky, but the payoff is huge: a combination of rainbow-driven eye-socket ecstasy and the satisfying knowledge that you paid less than half what you might pay elsewhere for the same experience.

I’m now fighting the temptation to repeat the purchase a couple more times in order to assemble a triple-screen array. If I don’t do that, I’m liable to order up a different brand of monitor based on the same panel, possibly the one with a matte anti-glare coating. Other models offer even more exotic possibilities. Some folks have actually been “overclocking” their monitors, ramping the refresh rates up from the default 60Hz to twice that. That prospect is… awe-inspiring. 120Hz refresh rates would be perfect for gaming. Also, recently, listings for 30″ Korean displays for under $700 have been popping up on eBay. They’re presumably the same sort of deal, only with higher stakes.

If you don’t want to go the eBay route, you may be able to pay a little more to grab one of these monitors at MicroCenter. Our local store is selling the Auria EQ276W for $399, and it currently has “10+” in stock. Paying a little more for retail should at least grant you the ability to return a monitor with too many dead pixels.

The story keeps unfolding, too. You can find info about the various brands and models, along with overclocking procedures and other recent developments, in various forum threads around the web, including our own here at TR and the apparent granddaddy of them all at Overclock.net.

Or you might want to hold off a bit. Surely, these panels will go mainstream in time. I expect eventually we’ll see this class of monitor selling from major brands here in the states for something closer to $600, complete with English documentation, solid warranty coverage, precisely engineered backlight diffusion, HDCP support, and all the rest.

But you have to ask yourself: where’s the fun in that?

I also make bacon unicorn references on Twitter.

Comments closed
    • MR_HOBS
    • 6 years ago

    Well, I realize this can be annoying, but after spending hours online, I don’t think I’ll ever have any confidence in this without getting some serious help.

    Can I even effectively use one of these bad boys with my old rig? I need a new graphics card that can do 2560×1600 (probably can only afford 16:9 though). My Radeon 9600 isn’t going to cut it lol, but I don’t know if my board can even handle anything on the [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140907023357/<]"compatible list"[/url<] I see on one of the eBay panels. It also says "Compatibility of VGA" so I'm not sure where that leaves me. There might be a chance I could use a slightly older card than they have listed, as long as it supports the resolution, and I'll also need it to have an AGP port. :/ Ultimately, cheapest is best for this old machine. (If I can get some assurance that it will probably work.) Yeah, I know, I should just get a new computer, but I need to save up for a while... [url=http://www.manualslib.com/manual/10149/Asus-P4p800s-X.html?page=15#manual/<]ASUS P4P800S-x motherboard[/url<] (with a Pentium 4, and 2G RAM) I guess I could also mention I don't really plan to do much, if any, 3D gaming. The most lifting its having to do is Illustrator CS6, Inkscape, and maybe some Blender and the occasional video. Might try to make it my movie screen, but that's not important. Also, (sorry, this is pretty long now) will applications even look good at high resolutions? For example, 2560x1600 is the same as the 13 inch MacBook Retina, and supposedly Illustrator CS6 looked crappy on it, until Adobe basically redeveloped it for high dpi displays, so... I'm wondering if the "standard version" would look better on essentially a Retina Display stretched to 27 inches, or if I would have to get the Illustrator update. (I probably will anyway, just to test it.) My hope is that it will be kind of a nice "in between" monitor, to use for today's applications, as well as the sure-to-arrive (now that Apple's wetting the masses appetites) "high dpi compatible" applications. Anyway, thanks to anyone and everyone who bothers to look into this stuff and for any comments in general!

    • mlakkadshaw
    • 7 years ago

    Hi,
    I recently bought this monitor and I connected it to my laptop using DVI-D to HDMI but the monitor is not waking up, only red light is showing.
    Is my monitor faulty??

    Thanks

      • indeego
      • 7 years ago

      Yes.

    • shaq_mobile
    • 7 years ago

    just hooked my monitor up yesterday. not a single stuck pixel. 🙂 i picked up some desktops from interface lift.

    my monitor is now a window into some swiss alp valley retreat. beautiful.

    • Etni
    • 7 years ago

    Hazro has been selling these panels (27″ IPS 2560×1440 used in thunderbolt blah blah) for ages. I’ve had mine for, I don’t know, maybe a year, and paid something like €400 for it at the time. Speakers aside, the Hazro models don’t have any extra features, not even a menu (it’s pre-calibrated) but I’ve never missed any extra features.

    tl;dr getting such a panel for a few hundred isn’t exactly a new thing, although these seem to be even cheaper than Hazro.

    • indeego
    • 7 years ago

    LCD’s are the most frequent defective item I see now, even before HDDs, within the standard 3-year warranty period. In fact, I’ve seen enough of them fail that getting an extended warranty for the pricier models is well worth it, IMO.

    No way in hell I’d get one of these with such crappy warranties.

    • Cannyone
    • 7 years ago

    I could appreciate the high resolution and the IPS panel if all I ever did was photoshop and CAD work. But I still like to game and when high quality displays like the Dell U2711 are described as “[url=http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1265617565/<]definitely not a gaming monitor[/url<]" there's no way I'd take a chance on something like this... And, please, don't just blast me with the opinion that you can't see any ghosting. Some of us are just more sensitive to that kind of stuff than others. So I'm not just trying to make this a personal smear. Oh, it would be interesting to see if your display has much Input lag. There is some software and a description of how to test for this found on [url=http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1229335064<]this page[/url<]. Then again you might not have a second display that's "fast enough" to be a reference point.

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      The U2711 (and U2410, U3011) all have processing stages that come with an input lag penalty, not unlike an HDTV, and you cannot turn them off. The panel reviewed here, as well as many HP panels (I have the ZR30w) are absent these processing stages and OSDs altogether. They have absolutely minimal input lag.

      Ghosting on the other hand is limited by the technology in the panel, such as it is. This most recent batch from LG seems quite fast and surprisingly clear, and I’m quite sensitive to it too, like Bensam. It’s still a compromise over the best 120Hz TNs, but not nearly as much as many LCDs have been, not even as much as most pedestrian TN models; they’re fit for gaming if you can get one without input lag (NOT DELL).

    • aurnob
    • 7 years ago

    [url<]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-ACHIEVA-Shimian-QH270-Lite-27-LED-Quad-HD-DVI-2560x1440-16-9-6ms-PC-Monitor-/110833856200?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item19ce366ec8[/url<] what to people think of this. $280 to my door

      • brucethemoose
      • 7 years ago

      That was the first Korean monitor available online, the one that started it all. I believe green-sum was the 2nd seller to offer these monitors (the first was dream-seller), and has a very good track record as far as packaging and shipping goes.

      I got the same one, it’s been running at 70hz since February, and it’s worth every dime.

        • aurnob
        • 7 years ago

        so are then newer ones any better quality or response time wise?

          • Chrispy_
          • 7 years ago

          Not really. The panel is the same 27″ LG S-IPS that Apple uses. The QH270-Lite is a pretty no-frills afair but at that price you really can’t complain.

          Also, that seller’s feedback rating is 99.4% over a huge number of autions. He clearly looks after his customers and works to resolve issues, if there are any. You should be fine.

            • Chandalen
            • 7 years ago

            I bought one of these near a month ago and in short it’s amazing for the price. I’ve got one stuck pixel on the far right edge that you can only see when the screen is completely black so I can’t complain at all. (I use it as movie watching screen as the 27″ size was the prefect size for my viewing distance). I’d forgotten how much better the colour was on IPS since I’ve been stuck with TN screens for 3 years now.

            I bought the monitor from the other major seller of these monitors, and while it took a couple extra days, they took the time to open the box check the screen (while leaving a note inside saying sorry for the delay) and then ship it after confirming it was in quality shape.

            • aurnob
            • 7 years ago

            thats good to know. yeah im running on a Acer G245H which is a better TN panel and got alot of rave reviews. Although its viewing angles aren’t great and I know this monitor would be much better.
            Now its just a waiting game and I’m really tempted for a 30 inch

      • Rendus
      • 7 years ago

      I have this monitor, and have had it for several months now. I even bought it from this guy, IIRC.

      I have 0 dead pixels, no real issues to speak of except two:

      1) The plastic bezel around the front of the LCD doesn’t rest flush against the LCD. Not an issue at all other than if you’re using a moist cloth to wash the screen, you have to be careful to not let any water run into the seam.

      2) It freaks out and looks like the monitor died if you have it on when your video card initializes from sleep or power off, and doesn’t go to sleep itself properly. Not a big deal to me, as I just turn it off and back on and it works fine.

        • aurnob
        • 7 years ago

        yeah that stuff is all fine and dandy, i guess i’ll jst wait and see. hoping the 30′ will drop below 500, coz i gota get a GPU as well

    • ronch
    • 7 years ago

    I’m still perfectly happy with my LG 22″ W2252TQ LCD that I got back in Feb. 2009. Great colors, great design, perfect. But it won’t last forever. So let those IPS panels come out and trickle down the price ladder so when it’s time for me to say goodbye to this friend of mine in front of me right now, better display technology will be available and accessible to me.

    • Bensam123
    • 7 years ago

    Not to say something really objectionable, but after reading all these comments, does anyone else find it weird that TR goes ‘inside the second’ in order put fps on video cards under the microscope, but simply refers to a IPS monitor on steroids (overdrive) trying to hit 6ms ‘good enough’ without further analysis?

    Looking in so closely as variance, frame time, and FPms… Yet all these things apply to the technology we view it on. Response time, refresh rate, and fps of the video card (and all the above mentioned variables that affect FPS). Three independent variables that all effect the end result to the viewer, but two of which aren’t even looked at in this article (overdrive, a confounding variable isn’t even mentioned).

    I know this is pretty hardcore scrutiny, but I think there is room for a lot of improvement quantifying the results as far as speed goes. I don’t deny that IPS panels most definitely have better colors, contrast, viewing angles, and I really do believe this monitor will shoot rainbows into my eyeballs and I’ll be left as a twitching mess… but they still don’t have the speed and that really needs a number when people start throwing around ‘good enough’.

    • hiro_pro
    • 7 years ago

    Scott: THANK YOU. anyone who posts about $400 27″ IPS panels. just thank you.

    i recently saw a few posts on these new monitors but wasn’t sure i could take them seriously. Based on your report and the feedback i needs to order one. Now i just need to figure out how to switch out my two 19’s without the wife noticing.

    i see the microcenter version is in stock and right down the road. i dont mind paying $50 extra to be able to return it. anyone have that one?

    also i have used huey from work. anyone try calibrating one of these monitors?

    • glynor
    • 7 years ago

    Scott, I just wanted to say… This is the greatest thing I’ve read all week. Maybe all month.

    [quote<] riding a unicorn made of bacon [/quote<] Simply perfect. Well done, sir. Well done.

    • kndonlee
    • 7 years ago

    Looking up these displays in korea, there’s also the Shimian QH270-IPSB. It looks like these monitors are available for around 243000won ~$200+ (fully featured, 2x vga, dvi, hdmi, component, etc) + S&H USD at the current exchange rates.

    [url<]http://www.compuzone.co.kr/product/product_detail.htm?ProductNo=190503&BigDivNo=5&MediumDivNo=1027&DivNo=2069[/url<] I'd say shoot for the Shimian QH270, which I've seen some eBayers also selling. Also a big thing to note is that there's lots of highly satisfied customers in Korea with these particular monitors.

      • brucethemoose
      • 7 years ago

      The Shimian QH270 IPSBS was very the first Korean 1440p display to turn up on ebay. Yamasaki Catleaps turned up next, and now there are a ton of brands out there.

      And only the expensive models (IPSM, IPST) have HDMI, component, VGA, etc. The IPSB/IPSBS model is the barebones one (which is fine with me).

    • jackbomb
    • 7 years ago

    Very, very tempting. I’m thinking of moving my new build to the living room and using it as a work/htpc/gaming machine. It has a GTX 670. Would I be able to drive one of these monitors at 120Hz [i<]and[/i<] pump a 1080p video + 5.1 PCM stream to an AVR at the same time?

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      Absolutely. You don’t have to use HDMI for sound, and you probably don’t want to if you’re going through a receiver because it’s going to add ‘input’ lag to the video output chain; you’re going to get plenty of that from the HDTV.

      What you need is something that can encode DD-Live! or DTS-Interactive on an optical or coaxial output. Your motherboard might already have this built in, most Creative cards come with this functionality or you can purchase software from their online store to enable it, and at worst (my solution) you can get an ASUS Xonar U3 that will do it as a USB -> optical 5.1 solution.

      Just make sure you message me if you get the Xonar U3- it works perfectly, but making it do 5.1 on the optical output isn’t intuitive. It sure was worth it to get BF3 MP on the 55″ with a Klipsch 5.1 setup; the bass for M320s is out of this world!

        • jackbomb
        • 7 years ago

        Thanks. I’d like to use HDMI audio just because I included the original THD, DTS-MA, and PCM 5.1 audio streams when I ripped my BDs. I’ve also ripped a few DVD-A titles, which would require HDMI to experience in all its glory.

        My receiver does offer a video pass-through mode which should eliminate any delay on the AVR side of things.

        As long as maxing out the GPU’s TMDS bandwidth with a 2560×1440/120 display doesn’t interfere with HDMI A/V, I’m good.

          • Airmantharp
          • 7 years ago

          If your receiver can pass through the video without adding delay, that’s awesome. Many receivers try to do up-scaling and processing on the input signals as the assumption goes that you may be using some crappy video source that isn’t 1080p, and any of that processing heaps on the lag. I still haven’t figured out how to turn all that off on my Yamaha yet.

          One possible solution is to use more wires- run video to both the TV and receiver from the GPU and tell the drivers to mirror the outputs, and then run digital audio to the receiver from the sound card and run HDMi from the receiver to the TV.

          You’d have to switch the audio output on the PC, audio input on the receiver, and video input on the TV, but it would allow for the best of both worlds. I’m mulling this right now but can’t really test it, as I’m using a laptop that uses one TDMS transmitter for it’s panel (stupid!).

            • jackbomb
            • 7 years ago

            One more question. Would PowerDVD be able to play Blu-ray movies on the secondary display (AVR+HDTV) even though the primary display (K-monitor) doesn’t support HDCP?

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Yes- video drivers report on HDCP link status, so when HDCP content is played on an output that has a positive HDCP link, everything works as intended.

            • jackbomb
            • 7 years ago

            Thanks. You know your stuff. 🙂

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]Would I be able to drive one of these monitors at 120Hz[/quote<] [b<]Absolutely not.[/b<] These are 60Hz monitors. Some of the Catleap Yamakasi screens overclock to 100Hz, though most struggle with anything more than 85Hz. A very select few models using modified boards run at 120Hz, these are super-rare and much more expensive than the basic models. I do not classify those 120Hz models as [i<]these monitors[/i<]. More info on those can be deciphered from 120Hz.net.

        • Zoomer
        • 7 years ago

        The only monitors that do 100 or 120Hz are the 2B revision that was EOLed. Newer controllers can’t drive that fast anymore.

        Some screens with scalars accept 100 Hz or 120 Hz input, but drop frames before passing it onto the panel. That’s not something you want.

        The only way to get a 2B is 120hz.net, or by visiting korea and praying to find old stock in a back alley.

          • jackbomb
          • 7 years ago

          Yup, the 120hz.net version was the monitor I was referring to. Sorry I didn’t make that clear in my first post.

    • cynan
    • 7 years ago

    In my limited experience, backlight unevenness/bleeding issues seem to be at least a tad overblown.

    Lots of LG IPS panels seem to suffer from uneven backlighting. Everything from the panels that go in TVs to LG smartphones to LCD monitors. My Dell 3007wfp is [url=http://individual.utoronto.ca/stockspage/pics/3007wfph.jpg<] no exception[/url<]. (The linked photo looks more pronounced as was taken in almost completely dark ambient light and camera angles may be exaggerating what is normally perceived with the human eye). The fact of the matter is there is noticeable bleeding on an all black screen in the bottom corners. HOWEVER. It makes absolutely no difference to me in regular use; 99% of the time I can't even tell it's there. That includes everything from some hobby level editing of raw photography in Photoshop to gaming to anything else I use it for.

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      Last I checked Dell was still using S-PVA’s in those panels (same as the 345T); did something change? Or is that only for the 2407/8’s?

    • entropy13
    • 7 years ago

    “TA_Planet” is selling “Limited Edition” Yamasaki Catleap monitors apparently, for around $520, although all I know is that they’re 120MHz.

      • Meadows
      • 7 years ago

      120 MHz? Wow.

        • Coran Fixx
        • 7 years ago

        These monitors aren’t delivered by bacon unicorns, they are made of bacon, that is why they are 120MHz

    • kamikaziechameleon
    • 7 years ago

    The prospect of getting 3 30″ monitors for just over 2,000 is very tempting.

    • Damage
    • 7 years ago

    Since several of you asked about ghosting, I’ll answer here.

    The display is rated for 6 ms response times and lacks a scaler ASIC, so I had very little concern about ghosting. I did test its response time with the Lagom ghosting/response pattern, and it had good results, matching the “-25” pattern generally. I had that in my notes and somehow left it out of the write-up.

    In regular use, I’ve not noticed any on the FSM-270YG LED, playing mostly Max Payne 3 and Trine 2, along with various bits of window dragging and the like. There’s no hint of the obvious ghosting from older, slower LCDs.

    FWIW, the subpixel layout is RGB. 🙂

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      According to Chrispys link, the panels rated at 14ms by the manufacturer and overdrive takes it down to 6ms, which isn’t the same as being a pure 6ms panel (artifacts from overdrive itself, especially if the scenes move too fast).

      You should play some FPSs before giving it the OK as far as response times go. I would even suggest a high action blu-ray, like transformers. That would probably do it too.

        • Airmantharp
        • 7 years ago

        Just try Counter-strike:Source. It doesn’t get any better than that, especially in some of the intentionally horribly lit custom maps.

          • Bensam123
          • 7 years ago

          The more crap that is happening on the screen, with the most contrast, the better. Transformers has a lot of colorful and high detail scenes that transition really fast. BF3 is one of the most graphically intensive FPS’s on the market, so you’d be most likely to see poor response times in that game as there is a lot of detail changing really fast. Simply spinning around would do that.

          CS:GO, like CS is pretty aged so it wouldn’t be a good candidate IMO. Yes, it’s new, but it’s still based on the source engine. Hard Reset would be another good one as would Blacklight: Retribution, but both wouldn’t be as good as BF3.

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        I did the test mentioned and I have pretty close to a 0 for the first test. It’s so close that I can’t make out the difference if there is one. So it could be like -7 to 0.

    • Scrotos
    • 7 years ago

    “friend Jeff Atwood of StackOverflow and SuperUser fame”

    Did you share your discovery on the “hold the button” technique with him? And did that make it start magically working for him? Or had he already returned his?

    Just curious.

      • Damage
      • 7 years ago

      Dunno. I’ve asked him via the Twitter machine. We’ll see.

      • Damage
      • 7 years ago

      He kept ’em: [url<]http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/07/the-ips-lcd-revolution.html[/url<]

        • Scrotos
        • 7 years ago

        Ok, thanks! Hopefully he got his brightness workin’.

    • Machupo
    • 7 years ago

    Scott,

    Any noise coming out of this monitor? I have a completely silent computer room with an inaudible gaming rig and the amount of buzz coming out of my 30″ 305t+ is absolutely maddening. Can you also put one of these on a scale?

    Thanks!

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      Some buzzing at certain frequencies, but that’s true of all monitors. The electronics buzz from the Achieva I have is less noticeable than either the Dells on my desk or the Samsungs I used to have at home.

      The tempered glass models are heavy. The ones without glass are probably 2lbs lighter. My tempered glass Q270-IPSI is about 13lbs without the power brick or stand.

      • Damage
      • 7 years ago

      I have not noticed any sound from the First monitor. No buzzing, nada. I’m sure there is some, but if so, the volume is imperceptible. I wouldn’t worry about that.

      • Parallax
      • 7 years ago

      Some do buzz. It varies a lot from sample to sample. Adding some glue/epoxy to the chokes on the circuit boards removes at least most of the noise.

      Sadly even displays coming from high-end makers now have the same noise problems.

      • brucethemoose
      • 7 years ago

      Actually… when I run my Shimian at 60hz, it’s virtually silent. But when I push it up to 70hz or 74hz (the max it’ll do), the buzz becomes much more pronounced.

    • shaurz
    • 7 years ago

    I’m hoping these monitors are an indicator of future Samsung and LG products…

    • Krogoth
    • 7 years ago

    I don’t understand the whole fetish with IPS displays and treating TN like they are garbage.

    Lighting and calibrating your monitor makes more of an impact on color accuracy then what kind of display technology it uses.

    The biggest reason to get a non-TN is for viewing angles (mostly for the multi-head crowd). LCDs themselves are woefully inadequate if color accuracy is your thing. CRTs are still king here and OLED have the potential to meet CRTs if they mature some more. Longevity and cost for a large screen are its two big hurdles.

    TNs are good enough for the most part, except the el cheapo units. I suppose you can argue the same thing for PVAs and IPS units.

    It really comes down how to cost. If you are going on a budget, you are going to have sacrifice quality (viewing angle, color accuracy or refresh rate). Getting everything doesn’t come cheap.

      • Kurotetsu
      • 7 years ago

      It really doesn’t matter at this point, as all the monitor manufacturers appear to be giving up on TN and moving over to (6-bit) eIPS and (8-bit) IPS. At least all the new monitor announcements I’ve seen for the last half year have been using those technologies.

      • JustAnEngineer
      • 7 years ago

      TN LCDs are terrible. Please don’t waste your money on a nasty TN LCD monitor.

        • Krogoth
        • 7 years ago

        It isn’t the 1990s and early 2000s anymore.

        You probably got soar experiences from el-cheap, early generation LCD panels that just happened to based on TNs.

        You immediately assume that all TN pnaels are super-bad without actually taking a look for yourself.You find may difficult to believe but there are a number of your precious IPS and MVA panel that are arguable just as bad as TNs, but in different ways! Guess what they have in common? They are bargain basement, “factory-rejects”. Some of the new, cheap eIPS aren’t really that much better than decent TN panels. It is marketing people are just playing off the whole IPS fetish and blind TN hatred gig.

        Again it comes down to cost. If you are going cheap, expect quality to suffer in some areas. What you may find more shocking is that most of the world simply doesn’t give enough of a damm to be willing to pay premium costs associated with a quality IPS. They settle for a decent TN panel which gets the job done. Cost has always been the biggest factor.

          • Airmantharp
          • 7 years ago

          +1; there are definitely some good TNs out there, and some crappy IPS panels.

          A good TN is good for literally anything except extremely color critical work (even LaCie made a calibrated professional TN at one point) or an application that requires exceptional viewing angles, like a TV. That’s right, a good TN is good for basic photo work, desktop use, gaming, movies, etc.

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      Yeah Krog… Not just cost, but input lag and response time. 14ms IPS panel vs a 2ms TN panel…

      The majority of people here don’t seem to play games or play them casually so they can’t tell and use the ‘good enough’ moniker.

      As per Chrispys post this IPS panel has a 14ms response time and 6ms with overdrive. My L227WTG has 2ms without over drive and I can still see artifacts in fast moving scenes. It should be noted that overdrive creates artifacts and may in fact make the image look worse depending on how much action is going on and how much over drive the panel is utilizing to make up for the lag. 14ms to 6ms is a lot.

        • Krogoth
        • 7 years ago

        LCDs will never be as fast CRTs in terms of response time, however these days most of the panels out there are good enough for the most part. I only see ghosting on my units if I pan around my camera back and forth (180+ degrees) like I’m having a seizure. Quite a striking contrast from LCDs from 10+ years ago where ghosting was a “big” problem.

          • Bensam123
          • 7 years ago

          People have been throwing around ‘good enough’ quite regularly in response to response times on IPS panels. Good enough is hugely subjective and pretty close to what someone says when they know stuff still looks bad, but they’ll ignore it because it’s below a certain threshold for them.

          I’m not sure what sort of LCD you have or if you play FPSs quite regularly. But in high action FPSs, mobas, and even some RTSs (like SC2), there is a lot of ‘seizure’ responses. I’m starting to think the crowd here isn’t twitchy enough to look at things from a lag aspect.

          I definitely agree that LCDs have improved from 10 years ago, but that isn’t to say there isn’t a difference between a TN panel and a IPS panel as far as input lag goes.

          I also agree, that it will be close to impossible to reach what CRTs did in terms of response time (there was none), but 2ms response time compared to 14ms is still a world of difference. 6ms if you include overdrive, but over drive in itself can add screen clutter if you go over a certain threshold of speed (making things worse) and unpredictability. That threshold changes based on how aggressive the overdrive algorithm is.

          Ideally there shouldn’t be overdrive in any LCDs and users should be allowed to set it themselves (which you can do on AMD video cards). Overdrive just muddles the waters and manufacturers do it so they can put a lower number on the box. Like this panel IS a 14ms panel and uses overdrive to bring it down to 6ms. My 2ms TN panel doesn’t use overdrive, yet I can still set it up in my catalyst panel to bring my response time down to…?

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            ‘Good enough’ implies a compromise- so, you get all the color and viewing angle benefits of an IPS panel while still being able to use it for gaming. If gaming is your only purpose, then you’re still in 120Hz TN land, assuming you can’t find a working CRT.

            OLED should alleviate our issues with LCD contrast, viewing angles, and response times across the board, and that’s maybe 5-10 years out (SWAG).

            Now, about this ‘overdrive’ on AMD cards. You’ve lost me there- the GPU and monitor overdrive schemes aren’t related. I think you may be talking about a DVI signaling feature.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Yes and ‘good enough’ is different for each and every person. Specifically because it involves compromise, that threshold can vary wildly.

            Like I’m not willing to sacrifice my ability to play FPS’s well just to have better color representation.

            Monitors have a feature called ‘overdrive’

            [url<]http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/monitors/2009/02/06/the-dark-side-of-overdrive/2[/url<] Essentially it tries to turbo boost the pixel to morph faster, but results in the pixel morphing too fast. This can result in screen clutter if the algorithm is too aggressive or it wont do anything if it's not aggressive enough. Adding to this, if action exceeds a certain amount of unpredictability and the overdrive is too aggressive, it makes a garbled mess of your display. Ideally you would want a overdrive algorithm that adjusts to the amount of action on the screen on the ms level, but as far as I know dynamic overdrive does not exist. Video cards are capable of doing this too, by making the color it's shooting for basically darker or lighter then what it's going for. AMD cards have a setting for this in the control panel (nvidia cards don't).

            • Krogoth
            • 7 years ago

            I have played my fair share of twitchy “shooters”.

            Trust me, any LCD can get the job tine as long as it can handle effortlessly do 10ms or less (60FPS or greater).

            2ms just makes fast-paced animation more “fluid” if the source material can provided it. It isn’t going to help frag any better though.

            Your nervous system is biggest bottleneck in input latency. The seemly “lightning-speed” reflexes you see in progamers are actually from proactive anticipation. They get from good, old pattern recognition from previous experiences.

            • Firestarter
            • 7 years ago

            Oh 60hz is good enough alright, but 120hz is most definitely a lot better. 75hz and 85hz make a difference too, one that is easily spotted if your GPU is up to it. And yes, your own skill, perception, reaction etc. are the main factors in your gaming skill, but that does not mean that more fluid and less delayed visual feedback doesn’t do anything for it. If you doubt that, try gaming at 30fps and report back.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Yes it does… It ALL makes a difference. Even if you can’t percieve every tiny detail, you can still feel the ebs and flows of the overall picture and that’s what matters.

            People are trying to quantify human senses in this thread in order to legitimize the prospect that ‘good enough’ for them is also ‘good enough’ for everyone else.

            I’m simply trying to suggest quantifying the results of the monitor in question and leave the rest up to people who have dead eyes or eagle eyes.

            • glynor
            • 7 years ago

            Exactly. The human visual system has between 70-100ms of latency, which (of course) dwarfs the latency in any LCD or game input system.

            That isn’t to say that input lag isn’t real, but you have to put it in context. The problem is that you are adding to the latency already present in your body, and your brain has to work to adapt to the altered latency.

            PS. It is also interesting that human visual system latency seems to be luma-sensitive (latency is lower when “tracking” a lightly-colored image, than it is when tracking a dark colored image).

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Nice presentation of both sides; the implied conclusion supports the prevailing argument that reducing latency wherever possible is good.

            • Meadows
            • 7 years ago

            Misinformation.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Probably true, but qualification for your dissent?

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Sources for his original post?

            Facts about limitations on the body are usually BS. No one has sources since human beings vary so incredibly much. Not to mention you can usually hone skills or senses if you practice with them.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Latency doesn’t coincide, it stacks. And as far as there being a accurate number for this, I’m going to call outright BS on you. Just like ‘the eyes can’t see faster then 30fps or 45fps or 60fps’.

            Provide sources for your 70-100ms of latency.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            FPS is independent of refresh rate which is independent of response time. There isn’t a magic number that something dips above or below and another doesn’t matter.

            It will help you frag better though. Being able to discern pixels in a split second or even ms is extremely important and if it’s a garbled mess when you’re scanning, it will get you killed.

            I disagree about there being a set limitation on your nervous system. It’s not all muscle memory as you’re inferring. Even if you aren’t capable of fully recognizing a scene, you can make out bits and pieces of it in split seconds when it counts. Even IF I take you word for it and people have set limits and it’s all muscle memory, you need the input to activate it and that isn’t present if your screen is blurry.

      • squeeb
      • 7 years ago

      Yea. I’m not giving up my 120hz for anything. Not until an IPS version becomes available and affordable – which will be years I imagine.

    • tanker27
    • 7 years ago

    Oh man, I want one of these!

    Oh and congrats on getting slashdotted! (EDIT: And Ars Thechnica’d)

    • Alexko
    • 7 years ago

    Please, display makers, take a design like this, add:
    — a DisplayPort input,
    — a decent OSD,
    — a “no dead pixels” policy,
    — a portrait mode,
    — somewhat thinner bezels,
    — add $100 to the price tag if you want,

    And I’m getting three of them!

      • Kurotetsu
      • 7 years ago

      [quote=”Alexko”<]— add $100 to the price tag if you want,[/quote<] Oh it'll be alot more than $100 for everything you're asking for.

        • Alexko
        • 7 years ago

        It shouldn’t be, they’re all pretty small things.

          • bobdvb
          • 7 years ago

          The dead pixels risk and luminance variation is one of the main reasons these products can be so cheap. If the brands reject the panels then unknown companies can snap them up and put them in a cheap package. If they make them more expensive then they compete with the brands & will likely lose. Remember that most consumers aren’t as discerning as this crowd, they don’t know the difference between TN, IPS, etc, they just see a bottom line price or a brand. Make it too expensive and no brand, then they’ll pick the inferior product from the brand.

          • Kurotetsu
          • 7 years ago

          Do you know that for certain? Have you actually calculated the labor and cost required to implement those features?

      • Parallax
      • 7 years ago

      120Hz should be added also.

      You don’t want an OSD. All the same controls (except backlight brightness) are available in the video card drivers, and the OSD adds a full frame of input lag.

      I’d actually prefer a thicker bezel, since thin bezels usually implies bad backlight bleed.

        • Airmantharp
        • 7 years ago

        I think you’re being down-rated for your last sentence; I agree with everything else though, so +1. The OSD/scalar usually adds at least one frame of input lag from what I’ve seen in various comparisons. So unless you need built in adjustments or off-resolution inputs (or analog inputs) that stuff can be left out.

        For the bezels, I think they’d make progress using RGB-LEDs instead of CCFLs, but I think it would make the monitor more expensive. It would certainly boost contrast and brightness while reducing the bezel size, weight, and power usage/heat output though!

          • Parallax
          • 7 years ago

          [quote<]I think you're being down-rated for your last sentence[/quote<] Probably. I have the Catleap which uses this panel with white LEDs, and if I look more than about 45 degrees down into the display the light at the edge starts to be cut off from internals. Making the depth or bezel thinner will only make this worse, and in general as displays get thinner they also seem to be developing worse bleed. What they really need to do is go back to using A-TW polarizers, as the white glow on these newer displays is very visible and one of their main drawbacks.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            The problem you’re seeing is also common on edge-lit W-LED TVs, which is nearly all cheap LED TVs. The nicest ones use RGB-LED and are back-lit, and tend to have pretty thin bezels as well.

            I’d expect a high-end RGB-LED implementation to thin these monitors down quite a bit in all directions, and reduce their thermal footprints.

      • brucethemoose
      • 7 years ago

      [url<]http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Crossover-2720MDP-GOLD-LED-Pivot-DP-Port-HDMI-2560x1440-WQHD-S-IPS-Monitor-/140764762706?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item20c63bd252#ht_16969wt_1159[/url<] There you go!

        • Dposcorp
        • 7 years ago

        Nice link. If you want to get a chuckle, go to the sellers eBay store and see what else they sell and the categories

        Examples:

        Crossover 2720MDP GOLD LED Pivot DP Port, HDMI, 2560×1440 WQHD S-IPS Monitor

        Hula Hoops

        Cosmetics

        Scientific Calculators

        Yoga Mats

        Its like a eBay/Walmart superstore!

        As Tina Fey would say, “I want to go to there.”

        • Ringofett
        • 7 years ago

        You might’ve just cost me $489, darn it. -.- That looks like a good deal..

      • Rayyeter
      • 7 years ago

      You just described (mostly) the microcenter version, aside from bezel/maybe portrait without buying another stand.

    • Johnny5
    • 7 years ago

    I was thinking that having the 27 incher’s backlight bleed shot on top of the Dell’s makes the 27 incher’s blacks appear even darker for those of us with TN panels. Naturally my next thought was ‘Yeah, I think it’s time I get a new monitor.’.

    • Bensam123
    • 7 years ago

    [code<]--Table of Contents-- Section 1 - Initial Impressions Section 2 - Responses to the Article Section 3 - Future Benchmarking Ideas[/code<] -Section One- "I didn't actually need it, since the three-prong connector in the power brick is compatible with any PC-style power cord." All hail the universal power adapter plug! "Geoff said, in his recent article on triple-display gaming, that he'd rather have three smaller, two-megapixels displays than a single large monitor like this one. The important thing to know about his opinion on this matter is that it's wrong. He just hasn't spent enough quality time with the right Korean import." Dem sound like fightin' words! One could suggest, that you haven't spent enough time with three Korean imports as him with one too... You could even try to one up him by doing a remix of the latest Eyefinity article with three of these... I mean if one of these monitors injects serotonin directly into your eye balls and eyefinity injects dopamine right into your brain, the question begs to be asked what happens when you combine the two. Inquiring minds want to know! -Section Two- You know, I've been holding onto my LG L227WTG for years. It was my first LCD I bought for my computer after switching from a CRT and I have no reason to upgrade since (till possibly now). From all the research I've done it was the best gaming panel on the market... and STILL is the one of the best gaming panels on the market regardless of 120hz monitors making their entry. I'm sure it will change in time, but I hope it should iterate how much I value responsive video input. I even sacrificed pixels for it and continue to do so. So, while this article was quite complete in a objective-subjective manner when it comes to color reproduction and PPI, one questions why this monitor wasn't tested playing FPS games or any real gaming at all (Trine isn't exactly fast paced). I know that's not the selling point of IPS monitors, but it's the selling point of monitors in general for some of us. I would like to know what sort of response time this monitor has and if it exhibits ghosting, tearing, and visual artifacts from processing (probably not because it's missing a ASIC XD). I know there are a few people who seem to think input lag doesn't matter at all, but I completely disagree. Otherwise, great review. It definitely sounded like you enjoyed testing the monitor and writing the review, which always makes it a joy to read. You guys make this out to be one of the upgrades that you really should get for your PC and makes a world of difference, SSDs are the other one. -Section Three- Speaking of subjective items that make a world of difference, can we get some new sound card benchmarks? The last few sound cards tested have all been Xonars. Not only that, the last comprehensive review was of Xonars in 2010. That makes the information kind of dated. Some things have changed in the audio scene. Creative has been going down the tubes as far as good products and driver support goes and HT-Omega and Asus have been rising up. There are still a couple sparks before Creatives demise though. How their new Core3D chipset competes (I've heard it kinda sucks) and how their final spin on the X-Fi chipset turned out after all these years. Specifically this card: [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033[/url<] Which I've heard nothing, but good things about. If you look at reviews on Newegg make sure you select verified owners. You could even turn this into a soundcard roundup / comprehensive review that would last another two years. Picking out six contenders, two you guys have already tested, one that is a older product redone (Creative Titanium), three you haven't already tested... Asus: [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006[/url<] [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132010[/url<] Creative: [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102041[/url<] [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033[/url<] HT-Omega: [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271001[/url<] [url<]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271006[/url<] Sadly HT-Omega only has one PCI-E soundcard. That pretty much covers all the big contenders, especially for their price points and really captures everything. I'm personally wondering what TRs take would be on the Creative Titanium though as I'm about ready to jump ship from Creative and wonder if they still have any redeeming qualities. My first gen X-Fi Fatality PCI has started generating pops and crackles once I upgraded from 8 gigs of memory to 16 gigs and had to do a repair installation because of a virus (weird set of circumstances that triggered it after all this time of working fine, but it did). The hardware is ridiculously solid, but the drivers simply aren't there.

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      Hmmm… I may have made this a tad too long. Perhaps I should’ve split it up into separate posts.

        • Wirko
        • 7 years ago

        Every post that exceeds one square foot @ 100 dpi should end with a TL;DR clause.

          • Bensam123
          • 7 years ago

          There isn’t a summary or a conclusion due to each section being about different things.

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      It’s not too long, but I have a few responses for you:

      1. Monitor Discussion

      Without input lag due to on-monitor signal processing, an OSD, or overdrive/pre-charging, you’re essentially running as fast as the pixels can naturally refresh. It’s not going to be as fast as a good TN, but if it’s <15ms, it’s fast enough, again under the caveat that there is no input lag introduced.

      2. Sound Card Discussion

      For sound cards, there’s more options out there now than there usually are, but there still aren’t many ‘good’ options. Really, you only need a good sound card if you’re going to be doing 7.1 analog out to a real receiver and speaker setup, or using a real set of cans. If you need digital surround output, which will be limited to 5.1, you can get a $40 USB sound card from ASUS if you don’t already have a card or motherboard that can do it for you. Creative will sell you software to do it if it didn’t come with your Creative card.

      It’s not likely that you’ll want to do analog 7.1 out, as you’ll need one of the nicest cards with clean eight-channel outputs, unless you’re building a high-end audio rig as well.

      So realistically, the best sound-card would be a PCIe card that has a 1/4″/6.3mm clean amplified output for nice cans along with simple, stable drivers.

      Right now my X-Fi Fatal1ty is running great with HD555’s and a Grado 1/4″ to 1/8″ adapter cord; I just wish I could find my portable amp to make sure they’re being properly driven :).

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        Just keep in mind ‘good enough’ for you doesn’t necessarily apply to the majority or even the minority of people. My 2ms display still isn’t ‘good enough’ for me as if I move too fast it’s disorienting in high action scenes. I can only imagine what would happen if I tripled that going to this IPS monitor, including overdrive (14ms without overdrive).

        Overdrive will add artifacts in and of itself, so it will add screen clutter. My 2ms display doesn’t have overdrive. The less predictable the action is, the more screen clutter overdrive will add, like switching from one direction to another.

        I will disagree outright about a sound card. I know TR said you really don’t need a soundcard anymore, but it still makes a world of difference to me. This is another one of those ‘good enough’ things.

        While they may say that about options they’ve tested, they haven’t really tested a whole lot of anything in the last few years. The last couple of reviews have been all about Xonar cards and only a couple of them, the last real review being in 2010. Reading reviews on other sites, it’s pretty clear that there is a difference between them and onboard.

        How can you make accurate comparisons when the only thing you’ve tested in like the last six years is a few Xonar sound cards and a Azuntech (that’s not even available anymore)? If they threw in something based on a different chipset then onboard (like the Recon or the respun Titanium) or by a completely different manufacturer (HT-Omega) it could lead to different opinions.

        Especially different chipsets. Seeing as the Xonars all use C-Media chipsets now, which is also available onboard.

          • Airmantharp
          • 7 years ago

          I did say ‘fast enough,’ but you’re right. IPS may not be fast enough- hell, no LCD tech may be fast enough. So I guess I should qualify that statement by revising it to say ‘relatively’ fast enough, as you’re simply not going to get the same quality in anything faster.

          Overdrive is also just about as detrimental to gaming as vsync or scalars or anything else; it mitigates ghosting at the expense of more input lag. Ghosting will only affect certain pixel transitions while input lag will affect the whole screen, all the time.

          For sound cards, I agree that TR hasn’t tested anything recently (and there’s a whole new line of Xonars out!), but at the same time, there just isn’t much worth testing. Some examples to show my train of thought:

          Let’s say you’re using a budget 5.1/7.1 system; anything $200 or less. You may notice some improvement moving to a dedicated card over integrated audio, and a $30 Xonar is probably worth it- but you knew that already if you’ve done any research.

          If you’re using a real system, say the nicer Logitech ones, and wanting to use analog out, there’s plenty of choices out there now, and they don’t differ too much.

          If you’re using a real hi-fi system and want clean analog output, you know you have to get something nice- a good review would be beneficial here.

          If you want digital surround output, you need something that can do the encoding, but you don’t need a review to find that, and it can be done by any Creative card and many motherboards. No review needed there.

          If you’re using nice cans (say >$100 retail) that need to be driven, then you’re going to want something that has a clean amplified headphone output. Reviews would be nice here as well.

          What I’d like to see is a roundup of USB headphone amplifier solutions in a gaming scenario.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            I’ve never looked at overdrive as bad because of input lag, but because it uses a algorithm to overcharge cells to reach a certain state faster, but that state can change or it might not happen in the same way, which leads to over shooting its intended goal. This leads to visual clutter on the screen. Making it mucky.

            The algorithms aren’t dynamic as far as I know, so this can be good or really bad. If the overdrive isn’t aggressive enough it will do hardly anything, if it is too aggressive then it results in a lot of visual clutter and a overall loss of quality in picture quality.

            I described this above in more detail though.

            I disagree about the sound cards. While there might not be an entirely new list of features, there are options out there that are different as I described. Different chipsets are bound to act differently then simply retesting a C-Media chip. The same as different manufacturers will have a different implementation (HT-Omega seems to be a popular one).

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Well, overdrive/precharging can themselves add input lag when there is a buffer delay; see any Samsung S-PVA/PLS. Beautiful colors, deep blacks, good response time, wretched input lag. Given that IPS panels need less help in this area it’s safe to assume that the input lag penalty is also much smaller. Whether or not it helps can vary by model.

            With sound cards, my point is that most of these new models are largely irrelevant. Especially the Creative ones, the X-Fi’s are better. The point I’ve been trying to make is that unless you want to use a nice set of cans or to pipe clean analog 7.1 out to a quality hi-fi setup, you don’t want a sound card.

            You’re better off using the on-board audio or HDMI audio for other situations. And from what I can tell, there’s exactly one PCIe sound card that has an amplified 6.3mm jack for real cans, and it’s EOL. For 7.1 analog, unless you have a hi-fi system that costs more than a new car, any name brand card will do.

            For gaming, USB headsets are the future. Isolated DACs with amplifiers tuned to the headset in question is really the best solution. For real cans, USB DACs, including one from Creative, are the most promising, and it’s these that I’d like to see a review of!

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Someone can say ‘XYZ is better’, but that’s not a qualitative measurement. That’s the whole reason we come here for benchmarks. And you don’t know if they still suck compared to Xonar cards or still suck in general.

            I don’t share your optimism for soundcards on a stick. If you go that route I don’t know why you’d even bother using a USB stick over onboard unless you’re on a laptop.

            None of what I was talking about was about driving headphones. I don’t really care about absolute clarity… I’m primarily a gamer (as you can tell from the monitor comments). Sometimes there is more to things then the SnR, like how well it performs in games, as far as accurately representing the environment and conveying the most information to the person listening.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            I’m going to need to do some testing for myself, to see if there’s any real difference between Realtek and Creative when it comes to games on Windows 7. The problem I ran into was that the Realtek implementation on my ASRock board wasn’t able to drive my HD555’s as well as the X-Fi, but I’m not sure if there’s any difference in processing.

            ‘Driving’ headphones has far less to do with SnR, by the way, than it does with getting the best sound reproduction out of them. Nice cans under-driven aren’t much better than crappy cans, regardless of the quality of the audio they’re being fed. So yeah, having a good headphone amp between the source and the cans is extremely important to gaming sound quality, just as much as it is for music. Having it built into the sound card (DAC, really) is just a plus, but an important one.

            In that vein, a USB sound card is actually a better solution than a PCIe one, in general, because there’s less noise outside of the enclosure, and you still have power available to drive cans. That’s why I’m more interested in Creative’s X-Fi-based solution than internal cards.

            The reason I’m less interested in run-of-the-mill cards is that using more than a 2.1 setup on most desktops is pretty rare, even for me, so cards with great 7.1 analog outputs have an ever shrinking audience.

      • ronch
      • 7 years ago

      I think you need a publisher.

    • HisDivineOrder
    • 7 years ago

    The pricing only seems ridiculous because we have been milked so hard by all the common companies that ship them to us. It’s clear they don’t cost anywhere remotely close to what we’re being charged for them. Hopefully, these cheaper monitors force these OEM’s to start dropping prices down closer to the more reasonable.

    Let’s face it. 2560×1600 monitors cost more or less what the 16:9 variants cost now. They were IPS then and they are IPS now. Prices aren’t dropping, but the monitors got smaller panels. The technology’s been around forever, but they’re still charging the same high prices they were then. Hell, a few of them actually went up.

    Therefore, you know they’re milking the high end customers. Milking, milking, milking us till we’re dry. But these monitors prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that we are in fact being milked. But I’d love it if they’d at least buy me dinner before they grope me so hard in the future…

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      We’re being milked, or is it economics? I think economics.

      First, these monitors offer nowhere near the quality of a Dell or HP with the same LG panel. Quality control at the very least is improved. Then there’s a warranty, which for anyone that would depend on one of these displays for work, is invaluable. Further, the features of the Dell with an array of inputs, scalars, menu options, a USB hub, and a real stand add real value.

      Are they worth twice as much as the Korean imports? Probably not, and the demand for them is probably dampened by their price as well.

      For gaming, one of these monitors, especially if you can get one from a B&M like Microcenter, is a pretty good deal. But for gaming, you don’t need everything HP or Dell gives you.

        • brucethemoose
        • 7 years ago

        In Korea, these monitors come with warranties just like they do here.

        As for quality, you should see some of the higher end Catleaps, Shimians, Crossovers, etc that are on the market. Off the top of my head, I know you can get a 27″ 2560×1440 10 bit (8 bit + dithering, as most “10 bit” monitors are) Shimian with displayport, HDMI, component input, and plenty of OSD options for less than the cost of a Dell U2711. You don’t get all those features from Dell or HP nowadays.

        “Economics” and “milking” are vague terms, but I think that the price difference is a reflection of the target consumer. In Korea, all these cheap IPS displays are marketed towards consumers. In ads, you’ll see them advertise how much desktop “space” they give you on the internet, how you can use documents side by side, and how beautiful the picture is for gaming and movies. But here in the US, these IPS displays are marketed as “professional” monitors, designed for workstations, photographers, media, etc, and carry a hefty price premium.

        In other words, this is like Nvidia’s GeForce/Quadro/Tesla lines. The GTX 480/580, Quadro 6000, and Tesla M2070 are all based on the same silicon, yet they’re priced miles apart from each other. DOA GeForce cards are quite common, but companies know they WON’T be getting a DOA Tesla M2070 for their shiny new data center.

        • Ringofett
        • 7 years ago

        These Korean alternatives are economics, too. In this case, glorious international free trade (much derided among the ‘intellectual elite’) allowing these Korean retailers to spot a place in the global market where there is a big opening in terms of market segmentation and price arbitrage, and they’re taking advantage of it, to the benefit of themselves and to our own benefit as consumers. We just have to be careful and be aware of the differences in these products in terms of the quality issues you raised.

        To the detriment of our local supplies as well though, but only because they’ve been resting on their laurels for about a decade now. In the long run, they should only become stronger for having to compete, which again helps consumers.

        I think teachers call this a “teachable moment.” :p

    • Derfer
    • 7 years ago

    No one else do what this guy did. Read the threads and know what you’re buying. The information there isn’t nearly as useless and confusing as he makes it sound.

    These monitors ALL have defects, and their defects vary from unit to unit. Color uneveness, dead or stuck pixels. If you’re lucky you get reasonable eveness and just a few stuck pixels, which are hard to see at this res. In fact the stuck green pixels on my friend’s are only visible with a solid color background. And of course expect backlight bleed. Not sure why all IPS suffer from that.

    The lack of inputs and menu makes them fast for IPS panels but requires a calibration profile to look right. DO NOT use your video card settings for this. It will absolutely destroy color/white/black depth. Even moving things just one notch in the CP, at least with nvidia.

    People sometimes have issues with the included dual link DVI cable quality so you may need to grab one from monoprice. Same goes for the powersupplies. They can be a bit spotty. There’s a link in one of the threads for a good one. Overclock has the richest threads for information on these monitors.

    Also even though this review mentions anti-glare coating I’ve never seen one of these with said coating. It’s a coating. It’s high gloss. I wouldn’t attribute the term “AG” to it. DO NOT buy the tempered glass ones. They’re prone to getting dust stuck behind them. These aren’t made in proper clean rooms.

    And about brands – I prefer the crossover. Metal body. Seems to be the best build quality.

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      [quote<]These monitors ALL have defects[/quote<] You have a less-than-20% chance of getting a flawed panel, and I've had uniformity issues, dead pixels and backlight bleeding from brands like Samsung, Sony, and LG too. They're [u<]just as defective[/u<] as these Korean screens by that measure. [quote<]...requires a calibration profile to look right[/quote<] With the exception of Apple displays and 'professional' monitor ranges from big brands, ALL monitors require a calibration profile to look right; Most of the monitors on the market have horrendous colour accuracy and many of them are still awful, even [i<]after[/i<] calibration. As if that wasn't bad enough, few people will EVER calibrate their screens, instead leaving them on the cartoonishly-bright and oversaturated out-of-the-box settings. [quote<]People sometimes have issues with the included dual link DVI cable quality[/quote<] That's because they're really cheap cables. If you buy an entry-level AOC, HansG, Benq or Acer monitor, they often don't even include a free DVI cable. *IF* you even get a free cable, it will be the thinnest, cheapest, nastiest DVI cable they could supply and it's [u<]par for the course[/u<] on budget screens. I hardly consider this a problem - It's not as if it's impossible to get a decent DL-DVI cable from elsewhere. [quote<]Same goes for the power supplies; They can be a bit spotty.[/quote<] That's an issue unique to the US, and your 110V mains supply. The supplied PSU's are designed and manufactured for 220-240V as used in Korea (and the rest of the world). Different sellers will provide different power supplies, but you may as well handle this yourself if you want to know [i<]exactly[/i<] what you're getting. [quote<]Also even though this review mentions anti-glare coating I've never seen one of these with said coating.[/quote<] It's the exact same type of polarising filter that's fitted to every other glossy screen ever produced. It's definitely not unique to the Korean screens, and it's part of the panel, not the housing so the blame here lies squarely with LG. FYI, the term AG refers to the polarisation of light, reducing glare. It does not claim to prevent [i<]reflections[/i<]. [quote<]I prefer the crossover. Metal body.[/quote<] Definitely more robust, but on the two I've seen in the flesh, and the closeups in [url=http://www.playwares.com/xe/index.php?mid=maingame&page=5&category=19628503&document_srl=19660697<]this thread[/url<], they all seem to suffer from nasty finishes - dust, hairs and dirt trapped for all eternity in the paint. It's really quite distracting and looks very low-rent. It's more choice though - which is no bad thing, so if you want metal housing there is at least an option.

    • Parallax
    • 7 years ago

    Beware that any of these displays marked “Perfect Pixel” can still have dead/stuck pixels and be within spec.

    I’d buy several if they can guarantee me 120Hz, low input lag, an actually perfect panel and a decent warranty. I’d be willing to pay more for this as well.

    • Welch
    • 7 years ago

    My heart sank when you mention no HDCP, its been around for so long you’d just naturally assume any display, especially one of this size and tech would include it. I wonder… in order to support HDCP, do manufacturers have to pay a price premium to license each product or something? Also whats the cost in putting the HDCP “decrypter” in a display?

    That was the first deal killer for me. Although I primarily game on my system, if I ever had an issue running something I legitimately paid for, I’d be angry to say the least. The second issue I took up with the display was your last minute report of uneven back lighting. I for one, cannot stand a display that has so blatantly ignore something so simple as uniformity.

    So unfortunately I don’t think I will be jumping up a purchase of one of these monitors. Had the back lighting at least not been an issue, it could have been considered for purely gaming.

    Either way… Thank you Scott for putting 300 bucks on the line to try out one of these displays and give us your feedback on it.

      • bobdvb
      • 7 years ago

      There are numerous occasions where (professionally) I need to *avoid* HDCP. While I have a terribly expensive device which allows me to do this under license, I also have a much cheaper device called an HD Fury which can do much the same thing. My older HD Fury only outputs YPrPb or RGB (but I mostly needed it for connecting to cinema projectors) but I see they now sell a new one which not only outputs either HDMI or Analogue HD, but it also converts any existing monitor to a 3D one. Perhaps this type of screen would be perfect for 3D conversion with the Fury?

      The disadvantage? It costs as much as the monitor!

      • Kurotetsu
      • 7 years ago

      Keep in mind that not all these Koreans models are exactly the same. Reading the HardForum or Overclocker threads makes that obvious. The particular model Scott bought lacks HDCP, many others have it. Like any other purchase, finding the models that has the features you want requires research.

        • bobdvb
        • 7 years ago

        The problem being that licensing HDCP adds cost to a product, as well as requiring a slightly more complex ASIC, it was probably a simple cost management decision. Plus getting HDCP negotiation right is a bitch, I say that from experience.

    • AGerbilWithAFootInTheGrav
    • 7 years ago

    He is riding a Baloonicorn, not bacon Unicorn :dang:

    • WaltC
    • 7 years ago

    Scott. Scott… Scott…! Upon reading this report my hearts leapt with a thousand joys!

    I have taken your picture (yes, I have a misty, dog-eared 8×10 b&w of you dry-eating a bowl of Cheerios in your backyard) and I walked over to the marble mantle above my office fireplace and moved my wife’s picture to the side of my resplendent visage while moving yours there in its place. (A [s<]soporifi-[/s<] honorific rarely accorded other mortals.) At first, my wife did not understand the honor and thought to question me--but I answered her with a decisive, "Hearken to me woman, and be silent!", a familiar command which she instantly, reflexively heeds. I am in awe of what you have written because it is so informative, practical, and delightfully helpful. I had thought--well, I am just so happy that I was wrong that I cannot contain myself--I had *thought* that some Tasmanian technology Devil had escaped with your soul and imprisoned it in some unspeakably evil and foul [i<]portable gaming device or ghastly *cell phone* ugh[/i<], wherein one or both of your eyes had been ripped from their orbits forcing you to endure computer gaming from a [i<]3.5-inch monitor for the rest of your natural life and three more after![/i<] I had thought--I had thought, Scott, that through no fault of your own, mind you, you had been taken from all that is pure and right in technology--large-screen computer gaming! Not [i<]two screens[/i<]--and, no, especially no, not [i<]three screens[/i<], or more! Brrrr-r-r-r-r-r-r! NOT THE BLASPHEMOUS SIX SCREENS OF SATAN! Ahgghghghghg! No! NOT THE 6-6-6! AIyeeee-e-e-e-e-eeee! Who wants to watch and play his game as *though he was in prison,* right? As though he was watching everything through prison bars? But, instead, computer gaming with one--yes, the holy "one"--ONE screen of gaming! I, too, am a disciple of the One Screen! Yes, your friend is indeed wrong for preferring more than one superlative screen while gaming--very, very wrong! With this article you have restored my faith in the Three [s<]Stoo-[/s<] Mystic Barnacles from Paramour! Thank you, my friend. (weeping softly.) But in the midst of having found you again, knowing that your eternal soul is once again safe and secure, you have also made me a bit sad. For I just ordered for my wife a 27" HannsG HZ281 active TN, delivered to our door, for $239 (T,T&T.) NewEgg. It's a 1920x1200, 16:10, dealy *with* a functional OSD, mind you. But, yes, no IPS. I wish to know this if you will deign to reveal it to a lowly one such as I....how is the IPS panel you bought in terms of ghosting or any artifacts thereof while play games on the wonderful One Screen? I am very tempted to follow your bold move into the world of thrifty and sensible IPS, but I need to know--how is it for gaming? Thank you my friend. Glad you are back safe and sound!

      • Mourmain
      • 7 years ago

      Have my babies.

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      It’s great for gaming. Any monitor using that LG 6ms IPS panel without a scaler will have one of the lowest pixel responses available. It’s not the very best, but it’s certainly good enough.

      More info and in-depth testing here – the model without a scaler (as per Scott’s) is the HZ27WC.
      Ghosting: [url<]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/hazro_hz27wa.htm#gaming[/url<] Input lag: [url<]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/hazro_hz27wa.htm#input_lag[/url<]

        • WaltC
        • 7 years ago

        Thanks for the info, Chrispy! I’ll follow your links next! Gad–what a great, great article this is! Isn’t it? I mean, I have to say that it is not only a solid example of the fruit borne from thinking “outside of the box,” but this kind of article is unique–and much, much needed today! I really did not know how much I needed to read an article exactly like this one, even if it did arrive just days too late to affect my buying decision on the 27″ TN. I have saved this article to disk and earmarked it for future reference.

        I would very much appreciate TR keeping us abreast of all future dynamics in this area–this is the kind of stuff that is *important* to me! I think we all grow a bit weary, both authors and readers, of endlessly rehashing “gpu battles” and so on. Really good stuff here–really good–and stuff not found anywhere else, either–I might add–which is definitely a feather in TR’s expansive hat.

        I think that 5ms response on a good TN is very good (not the phony “3ms” and less times that are artificially derived) and so I imagine that a “real” 6ms response on an IPS must be just this side of glorious. As far as the internal scaling goes, I’ve monkeyed around with both like we all have and I agree that it is difficult to tell the difference. A long time ago–when LCD’s were young and new–a good internal scaling chip did indeed make a difference during those times when one was forced to deviate from the native resolution. I really don’t think it’s a big deal, today, however, as the gpus themselves seem to have that down to a science. So–I can’t find a reason to criticize there, either.

        This article needs to stay up on the front page and rotate through for a good long time, with lots of cool sideboards and stuff that Scott and the gang might like to add to it as time moves on. Information like this is too precious to be forgotten. Thanks, guys–thanks a lot! Keep it up!

        (I probably sound like I’m blubbering all over myself, but I really do get fired up when I read good, solid, quality material like this. This is the kind of information people can use to enrich their lives! OK–OFF the soapbox…;) This is exciting stuff–I love to see price-performance barriers shattered.)

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        Interesting links, thanks.

      • lilbuddhaman
      • 7 years ago

      I also have the HannsG 27″. Great monitor, but (to my own embarrassment) I thought I had been ripped off when I couldn’t discover the OSD buttons as they are placed in a weird location. After groping and prying I finally found them 🙂

      p.s. your post scares me.

      • JustAnEngineer
      • 7 years ago

      Rainbow ecstasy may have some minor side effects.

        • cynan
        • 7 years ago

        And that’s from just reading about it.. I hope Damage will be OK.

          • Damage
          • 7 years ago

          It’s hard to see the monitor with your eyeballs rolled back so far in your head.

      • Bensam123
      • 7 years ago

      And WaltC spits out another nonsensical post mixed with some elements of symbolism and line of thought (writing whatever comes to mind)… and coincidentally worshiped for it. This one was more relevant then some of the posts I’ve seen him write though.

    • indeego
    • 7 years ago

    Enthusiasts: Exchanging time for tinkering and experimenting. Amusing article, nevertheless.

    Do fill us in in 9 months when it’s dead, Jim!

      • mi1stormilst
      • 7 years ago

      Just something I would like to point out…there are plenty of people having great success with these monitors including myself. Anyone knocking this spectacular deal that these monitors offer are simply jealous or have buyers remorse because they spent three times as much for the same thing. The bottom line is there is a slight risk, but few sellers and few manufactures offer zero pixel policy. Those that do are not offering perfect color reproduction or even lighting promise either. All monitor purchases are a slight risk and I would say from the Overclocker Forum results your chances of getting a good monitor are very high…probably as high as they are from Dell, Apple or any other manufacture using similar panels. I can promise you that once you get it in, hook it up and test it out you will feel like someone just gave you an early Christmas present. $350 is not a lot to pay for a spectacular monitor…anyone thinking TFT is acceptable for daily computing is just living in denial. This is the model I purchased if you are interested “★ACHIEVA Shimian★QH270-IPSBS QHD 2560×1440 27″ LG S-IPS Monitor Speaker WHITE” from the following dealer: “accessorieswhole” [url<]http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACHIEVA-Shimian[/url<] ... 584wt_1163 ...enjoy yourself and ignore the naysayers.

    • Wirko
    • 7 years ago

    Scott, have you checked if the display responds to commands sent via DDC?

    There’s always been a lack of free utilities to do that, though. Maybe [url=http://www.portrait.com/dtune/vsc/enu/overview.html<]this[/url<] works, or anything proposed [url=http://www.instantfundas.com/2011/10/how-to-control-real-brightness-and.html<]here[/url<], or anything provided by [url=http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/learningresources/monitor/magetune/pop_intro.html<]other[/url<] manufacturers.

    • Sam125
    • 7 years ago

    Thanks for the funny and well written review, Scott!

    • Kougar
    • 7 years ago

    Question: That sticker would seem to indicate RGB LEDs are used… can anyone confirm what kind of LEDs this thing uses? Sounds like white LED, but doesn’t hurt to be hopeful…

    Given CCFL backlights enable a wider color gamut, it partially self-defeats the point of an IPS panel to combine it with white LEDs. The color reproduction is just better on IPS with CCFLs, but it would be nice if RGB LEDs would begin entering the mainstream segment to fix this.

      • ludi
      • 7 years ago

      I think it’s just a sticker.

        • Kougar
        • 7 years ago

        That’s what I would figure.

        If groups like HP or Dell at least made the switch to RGB LED’s their monitors could easily justify some of that price premium. I wonder how many years it will take before they finally begin making the switch.

      • Parallax
      • 7 years ago

      They use white LEDs. The gamut is just about sRGB, with a little extra in the blue. The overall color cast depends on the internal controller boards, which have varied from month to month.

    • kyboshed
    • 7 years ago

    OT but congrats on hitting the front page of Hacker News at the first attempt 🙂

    • kroker
    • 7 years ago

    Thank you for the review.

    [quote<]I haven't sorted out how one would go about removing the stalk for a wall-mount setup, though it must be possible. [/quote<] TFTCentral reviewed a very similar (almost identical?) looking monitor recently, and provided a guide for removing the stand: [url<]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/dgm_ips-2701wph.htm#stand[/url<] (basically you have to unscrew the whole monitor...)

    • ALiLPinkMonster
    • 7 years ago

    Scott, you’re my hero.

    Best written article I’ve read in quite some time. I need to get my hands on one of these.

      • DragonDaddyBear
      • 7 years ago

      Why get one when you could get three?

        • ALiLPinkMonster
        • 7 years ago

        Why get three when I could get six?

          • DragonDaddyBear
          • 7 years ago

          Because, I don’t think a Crossfire/SLI setup could drive that many dots, at least easily.

            • ALiLPinkMonster
            • 7 years ago

            Three 7990s?

            • DragonDaddyBear
            • 7 years ago

            Maybe, but the scaling of X-fire/SLI is not linear. If you’ve got the money to burn, give it a shot and let us know how it goes. But I don’t think you’ll get ver high quality settings on your games.

            Now, if you wanted just a gigantic screen for text, then a single Eyefinity card would do just fine… if you get the fancier DP equipped modles or lots of adapters.

            • ALiLPinkMonster
            • 7 years ago

            I figured. Not serious, btw. Not unless I win the lotto of course…

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            The issue isn’t just fill-rate, but also total resolution space- that’s 11MP before bezel correction, which means that you’ll probably need 4GB Keplers, and at least three of them at that. A pair of 8GB GTX690’s would be ideal.

            Or, whatever setup of 6GB GCN cards you can find, but the jury is still out on the micro-stuttering issue they present (as noted by the [H]).

    • hechacker1
    • 7 years ago

    It’s important to note that they made a batch of these that run at 120Hz guaranteed, assuming you have a GTX680. Other cards can only push up to 85Hz.

    Also, if this will be a gaming monitor, stick with the single interface DVI. Adding any other inputs adds scalers, and thus input lag.

    And some of the panels also offer 10bit color.

    Overall they are a great deal if you don’t expect warranty or support. I plan to try and snag a 120Hz model when they are reasonably priced.

      • continuum
      • 7 years ago

      Wait, what? Where? We have a bunch of us who would love such a beast. Of course, it has to actually have a response time fast enough to handle it…

        • hechacker1
        • 7 years ago

        So the deal is that initially all these 27 inch monitors actually were built with over specced parts.

        So the early batch with motherboard version 2B was able to go as high as 120Hz with certain video cards.

        But once people found out, they started producing the cheaper 2C and 2D versions that only got to 60hz (cheaper components).

        So they got the plans to the 2B and asked a chinese manufacturer to put the boards together.

        You can get them here.
        [url<]http://120hz.net/[/url<] 550 is not that bad for such as awesome monitor. Assuming you have the graphics horsepower for it.

          • siberx
          • 7 years ago

          I’ve been following these monitors very closely for months and have purchased some, as well as done *significant* research (I’ve even disassembled and analyzed their driver boards for backlight troubleshooting). Below are some of the key points I’ve gathered:

          -They really are as good as they seem, and they’re absolutely worth it. You will not get a monitor close to this nice at *anywhere* close to this price anywhere else.

          -The low price is partly due to barebones featureset and lack of product support, but primarily due to the fact that these monitors use lower-graded “A-” panels instead of the “A+” ones used by the likes of Dell and Apple.

          -Despite this, the monitors are surprisingly consistent in terms of quality. My feeling from following the threads is that presence of notable defects is roughly 10%, maybe less, where a notable defect would be a few dead pixels or particularly bad backlight bleed. The average panel used in these monitors has a bit of backlight bleed at the bottom typical of the panel in general (even the dells/apples can have some of this) and no dead/stuck pixels.

          -I have been involved with the purchase of 4 of these monitors; one no-speaker 2C catleap (which I am reselling soon), one 2C speaker catleap with tempered glass (the glass is pointless, and it was purchased hoping for a 2B left in stock and is now my girlfriend’s) and two 120hz.net high refresh reissues. None of these monitors have dead/stuck pixels, and one has a small pixel-sized flaw in the polarizer. Otherwise they’re all pretty much perfect.

          -Stock color accuracy is not the greatest; nearly all of the panels have a slight green tint initially. A color calibrator such as a spyder 4 pro is strongly recommended; my friend and I (we each bought 120hz catleaps) split one and my colors are fantastic now. Not to mention I got to calibrate my secondary monitor, girlfriend’s monitors and work monitors too with it 😉

          -Most of my experience is with the Catleap Q270s, as these were the ones best known to “overclock” to high refresh rates.

          -The difference between “overclockable” and “non-overclockable” units is their internal signaling; the earlier high-refresh monitors use LVDS internally and the newer cheaper ones use embedded DisplayPort

          -Originally “2B” variants of the Catleaps overclocked, and now the reissues off 120hz.net do as well (when they’re in stock) although the price has been increased for those units now

          -If you *have* an LVDS unit (such as a catleap 2B or 120hz reissue) and a single current-gen graphics card (such as a 7000-series radeon or 600-series geforce) you should be able to run your monitor up to 120hz or so with a good cable and the right drivers/tweaks

          -Older cards or running in SLI will limit your refresh rate to somewhere between 85Hz and 100Hz

          -The stands suck bigtime on the catleap – an aftermarket one is recommended. Monoprice has a cheap and very decent stand available for cheap (especially if you’re in the states) but I’m currently using a dual-arm ergotron LX stand with my old monitor (a Lenovo L220x PVA panel) as secondary and it does the display setup the justice it deserves. I love it.

          -Overclock.net initially had a bunch of information about these monitors, but when some posters were trying to arrange for the high-refresh re-issues and to source upgrade PCBs for the non-overclocking ones the admins stuck their noses in the action and tried to get a cut of it all. It was a big mess, but a bunch of the discussion now happens on 120hz.net as detailed above (especially for the high refresh rate variants)

          -The speakers in the catleap are terrible, and effectively a non-feature. Some versions have it, some don’t – either way treat them as if they’re not there.

          And lastly, for anybody wondering, running an IPS 2560×1440 high pixel density display at 100-120hz is truly the most glorious experience in displays available today. I have sorely missed high refresh rates ever since I switched off CRTs and I finally have my delicious smoothness back, except with all the other advantages of modern high-end LCD technology (sharpness, resolution, etc..).

          If anybody has any other questions feel free to ask and there’s a decent chance I’ll have the answer or can point you toward one 😉

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Yeah, looking at 120hz.net it pretty much looks like it’s a stage to sell these specific monitors now. The forums are practically empty except for this specific monitor and discussion of it. It seems as though they’re making a pretty decent chunk of money off of doing this to as they were originally selling the boards, but $125 seems like a lot for it… especially if they’re getting them from Korea. I’m guessing there is a $100 premium associated for each one.

            The original post you’re replying to is suggesting even operating at 120hz, these are still IPS panels and suffer from response times associated with them.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            The IPS panels *should* suffer from their response times, but not by much. 120Hz is really just 8.33ms, which is more or less these panels’ operating range.

            I’d expect with some panel fine-tuning from LG we might just have a flood of ‘gaming-grade’ IPS panels that can do the proper 120Hz signaling, run in full 8-bit color, and around 70% Adobe RGB. Give them a high quality intermediate coating with just enough matte to make them livable, with thin bezels and RGB-LED back-lighting, and make sure DHCP is supported over Displayport, and call it done!!

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            There isn’t a hard stack where all the numbers, FPS, refresh rate, and response time all coincide perfectly so one doesn’t effect the other. Even if a monitor is only morphing pixels so fast, an increased refresh rate will make sure that up to date data is currently available. Higher FPS insures a more fluid experience. Everything insures a more fluid experience and each one of them is important. One isn’t obsolete because another operates at XYZ.

            Refresh rate isn’t the same as response time too.

            If the response times of the pixels operates at 8.33ms that is still too slow when you have a TN panel that operates at 2ms with zero input lag. You can easily tell when you’re looking around all the time in FPS. You subconciously start slowing yourself down so you can make sense of what you’re looking at because the monitor makes it too blurry… ‘chunky’ is a better way to describe it.

            I outlined that in my post on the page, but I think that was too massive for anyone to look at. :l

            • Parallax
            • 7 years ago

            The response time on these panels is about 9-14ms. That’s without overdrive, which means there are no overshooting artifacts and we don’t need to worry about it interfering with unusual (non-60fps) framerates.

            1-2ms TN panels all have at least 5ms actual response times if you read independent tests on them.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            And IPS panels have around 20-25ms response time if they have independent tests done on them too? Or do you think manufacturers do legitimate testing on those as well because IPS is better?

            My LG L227WTG doesn’t have overdrive on it and it’s still listed as a 2ms monitor. What makes you think IPS panels are once again obsolete from having overdrive on them? Or tested with or without overdrive on? Simply because they’re IPS?

            • Parallax
            • 7 years ago

            I’d prefer to have as low of an input lag as possible, since I know I can tell the difference. Using overdrive tends to add at least 1 frame of input lag. Given the option I’d like the capability to turn overdrive on and off at will.

            The Shimian using overdrive has been tested by Prad.de with an average response time of 9ms [url=http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prad.de%2Fnew%2Fmonitore%2Ftest%2F2012%2Ftest-shimian-qh270-teil6.html<]here[/url<]. The response tests [url=http://down.playwares.com/xe/files/attach/images/53/283/066/6ab3c0c5d1e8c3e01f06db6c55a13abc.jpg<]here[/url<] show the same Shimian display with 10ms response, and another display with the same panel at 13ms response. The second panel either has a milder overdrive, or no overdrive.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Yup, I was merely pointing out that IPS panels aren’t immune to having overdrive simply because they’re IPS panels though.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Overdrive adds input lag- one of the reasons S-PVA and PLS panels from Samsung should be avoided for FPS gaming. I’ll take ghosting over overdrive any day.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            I’m not sure if I’d agree. Depending on how bad ghosting is, it can make games close to unplayable. IPS panels in the 15ms range are pretty close to what TN panels are when they first came out and that was pretty bad.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Well, 15ms is going to be in the worst-case (whatever transition that is for these panels), with average and best case below the 8.33ms time needed for smooth 120Hz output.

            My Samsung 204B, an ancient ‘professional grade’ TN, has incredible ghosting and yet is more than usable for gaming, including competitive Counter-Strike. It also has better viewing angles and colors then most other TN’s I’ve seen, and I use it in portrait mode as a clock/weather/Ventrilo/etc. monitor.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            There isn’t a magical number you reach for response time. Response time is how fast a pixel morphs from one state to another. The refresh rate doesn’t get to choose what state the pixels are in when it sends a refresh, the pixels don’t get to choose how fast they morph. So, it’s entirely possible for a pixel to morph from one state to another slower then another pixel because the content they’re displaying is different.

            Overdrive muddles these waters as the panel is 14ms to begin with, so you have the monitor attempting to over compensate in order to speed up pixel morph speeds, which then can be changed based on if the user looks in a completely different direction. That adds graphical distortion on top of the refresh rate.

            What you’re saying is there will be no perceivable difference when you get below the refresh rate, that isn’t true. Your eyes are still viewing the pixels regardless of how fast the monitor refreshes. Your eyes will be able to see how fast the pixels morph from one state to another. Your eyes will also be able to discern how fast the action updates and the scene changes, as well as the fluidity of the game (by comparing it to your input).

            Response time is independent from refresh rate which is independent of FPS. Overdrive is a confounding variable. Meaning it’s behavior isn’t always present and doesn’t always have a predictable outcome on the above three independent variables.

            (The 6ms number is based on a absolute perfect case of overdrive functioning flawlessly and dropping the monitor down from 14ms to 6ms)

            The only way to make one dependent on the other is with vsync (only applies to refresh and fps), but vsync doesn’t speed up your refresh rate, it merely slows down your computer to make your image more graphically pleasing.

            Color and viewing angles don’t really matter when it comes to gaming… This is one of those things where I really wish I could show you my TN so you can compare it to yours. My panel has almost 0 input lag and almost no perceivable ghosting, but still has artifacts in fast scenes because the pixels can’t morph fast enough.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            I need a ‘Devil’s Advocate’ tag.

            I actually agree with everything you’ve said- I haven’t spelled out most of this stuff because I believe my understanding of response times, overdrive/pre-charging, refresh rates, FPS, vsynch, and their relationships to be a common understanding; at least your understanding and mine are the same, so we won’t have to repeat it.

            So here’s the train of thought:

            FPS tied to Refresh using Vsync, and pixels are refreshed during each cycle; if the pixels always refresh at less than the time of one cycle (8.33ms for 120Hz), then at least the panel would be updating at at least 120Hz. Obviously some pixel transitions will be faster than others, but the point is they’d all be at least as fast as the input signal.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Yes, but the overall fluidity of the picture would be disrupted and the overall responsiveness to the game would be delayed. That’s why I said they’re all indpendent unless they’re forced.

            Locking the FPS drops the input responsiveness and just because a frame is displayed without tearing does not mean it is representatitve of the content behind it. Which means the next frame that is displayed could have data that differs quite a bit from the one before it. As the frame was locked to displaying the whole frame regardless of what is happening or changing.

            Time is constant, but Vsync essentially freezes time to give a visually pleasing picture.

            Response time of the pictures details how long it takes before the monitor draws a completely clear picture regardless of refresh rate or fps. It’s essentially the amount of time before you can decipher the image, make sense of it, and then take actions based on it. The more the scene changes, the more it matters in all regards.

            I know you’re inciting conversation. You haven’t come across as hostile. This is just something I feel very animately about and there is a lot of contention between people who can’t tell the difference (chalking it up to good enough) and those that can. In other words this is helping to offer a clearer picture on the other side of the issue that wasn’t taken in the original article.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Double post.

            • Meadows
            • 7 years ago

            These panels we’re discussing are rated for [i<]6 ms[/i<] (no scaler, no logic, no OSD) which, if it's performed as promised, will make 120 Hz refresh rates just about a perfect fit.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            6ms with overdrive, 14ms without.

            Chrispy has a link to it.

            • Meadows
            • 7 years ago

            In that case, this is bad.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]It's great for gaming. Any monitor using that LG 6ms IPS panel without a scaler will have one of the lowest pixel responses available. It's not the very best, but it's certainly good enough. More info and in-depth testing here - the model without a scaler (as per Scott's) is the HZ27WC. Ghosting: [url<]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/hazro_hz27wa.htm#gaming[/url<] Input lag: [url<]http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/hazro_hz27wa.htm#input_lag[/url<][/quote<] Yes it is... It seems like a lot of people on here don't know what overdrive entails.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            You’re right, but vertical synchronization eliminates most of that. It largely brings the rendering engine into sync with the monitor’s refresh rate, so the only thing out of sync is pixel changes that take longer than the panel’s update rate (1000/refresh rate, or 8.33ms for 120Hz).

            This means that you might experience some slight ghosting on these panels as they’re probably not under 8.33ms for every conceivable pixel change scenario, but it would probably be no more than 10ms at most. And that’s definitely much more livable than adding some level of input lag with pre-charging or overdrive methods.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            vsync still doesn’t magically align all the stars. It merely keeps the scene from updating when it’s being pulled. Response time of the pixels is completely independent of both refresh rate and FPS. Not just that, but I’m sure you know there is a downside to vsync in which the scene changes when it’s being updated, if your graphics card is operating under 60fps it can lead to really undesirable effects (such as lowering your frame rate), and latency via double buffering… even more so if you add triple buffering.

            Vsync fixes graphical glitches, it doesn’t fix performance ones.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            Yup, it’s not good for non-deferred renderers, but it works perfectly without a performance impact on BF3s deferred renderer. So it’s a disadvantage when used with say Counter-Strike:Source, but anything not using an immediate-mode renderer will be fine, and anything not as susceptible to that sub-frame lag will also be fine.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            You’re talking about page flipping. There really is no way to tell if your vsync is doing double (or even triple) buffering or page flipping without doing in depth research for it, which most people aren’t going to take the time to do. All of the above still add latency, even if page flipping is significantly less, all have negative effects if your FPS is under the vsync cap, and all of the above cap how fast your fps can be drawn (60fps).

            Case and point. Vsync is needed to prevent tearing as the image is updated as it’s being displayed. Inherently Vsync is there to keep the current image from changing so the whole thing can be displayed without tearing. [i<]even if[/i<] the image is changing behind the scenes. That's why people say there is a world of difference between 120hz monitors and 60hz ones. If vsync magically fixed the refresh tearing, 120hz monitors wouldn't matter. Vsync is like makeup. It doesn't fix anything, it just covers it up. Put into context of the above, refresh rate negatively impacts both IPS and TN panels equally. Both can benefit from a higher refresh rate, but IPS panels less then TN due to their pixels taking so long to morph.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            I’m not really disagreeing with anything you’re saying, just trying to add a little perspective:

            Vsync isn’t a perfect solution, and it also isn’t ‘evil’ for gaming. It’s only detrimental in practice with games that render immediate mode and require quick reaction times. Turn it off for Counter-Strike or you’re screwed.

            People claim that 120Hz makes a noticeable difference on the desktop as well, not that there’s much utility.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            I’m not sure what you’re talking about with immediate render mode. There are two modes for vsync, double buffer (triple buffer is a variant of double) and page flipping. Both add latency and both suck for any game where you need quick reaction times (FPSs of any kind).

            I don’t think 120hz would be noticeable on the desktop (dragging windows maybe?), but I’ll take your word for it.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            I’m talking about the game engines themselves. Battlefield games have always felt laggy to me, but my standard has been Counter-Strike, which I played heavily from beta 7.1 through Source, up until about three years ago.

            BF3, specifically, takes no perceivable performance hit (it doesn’t feel any laggier) from vsync, unlike CS where it directly affects your competitiveness. This is due to it using a deferred-rendering model instead of immediate-mode rendering.

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Hmm… doing some quick googling, I don’t see any references to vsync to these two specific modes. Deferred rendering sounds like it adds more latency (which I’m sure is true), but vsync would equally effect both of them in the same way. In the context of deferred rendering, that would be adding latency on top of latency, instead of one coat of latency. Vsync still adds lag to either mode though.

            BF3 could use page flipping as well and CS could use double (or even triple) buffering, which would most definitely make the difference more perceptible from a subjective standpoint. I believe games have the option of choosing their type of vsync, but I’m not entirely sure how that is handled.

            But vsync adds latency to everything. It doesn’t speed up rendering, it slows it down so your monitor can keep up and adds latency on top of slowing things down. Unless your FPS is lower then your refresh, then it does a bunch of really bad things. Which can very easily happen in games. Going from 100 actual fps down to 30 and the back up while vsync is on can make a mess of coordinating input.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            I haven’t seen it either- it’s more of an observed thing, but I’ve seen it corroborated across forums. BF3 is really the first game where I (and anyone I’ve asked) have seen that doesn’t show increased input lag with vsync.

            It’s weird and completely unexpected, but cool at the same time.

            • APWNH
            • 7 years ago

            Nice post. I’d like to just chime in here: I ordered two of these monitors at 120Hz.net and can report that this is the real deal. One’s running 113Hz and the other reaches a full 120Hz (haven’t tested this one to see if it will go any higher).

            Driving them both with a GTX 670.

            They are beautiful glossy high pixel density IPS displays that absolutely put my Dell 2407WFP-HC S-PVA panel to shame.

            Don’t even get me started on the fluidity of the refresh rate. It’s a complete breath of fresh air not unlike an SSD. Possibly even better. Because you can feel it in even more things.

            Like smooth scroll in Chrome with one of the smooth scroll extensions. It’s really smooth. And games gain a completely new level of immersion.

            I guess I lucked out. Both are nearly flawless. No bad pixels I can find. Backlight bleed is imperceptible.

      • Parallax
      • 7 years ago

      If you read through their posts on 120Hz.net the GTX670-680 can reach 120Hz, prior NVidia cards reach ~85Hz, and almost all AMD cards can reach 120Hz. The newest NVidia beta drivers can’t reach 120Hz, but it’s unknown if this problem is permanent.

      10bit color can’t really be used with these at all (there’s no way to feed it a signal like this). I’m just glad they’re not 6-bit.

      I’d buy one (or more) of these 120Hz displays if they could guarantee me a perfect panel and a decent warranty.

        • continuum
        • 7 years ago

        Oooooooooooooooooo. That is indeed tempting. Not so much for me personally (uneven backlight? ugh) since I don’t game much these days, but damn…

        • Airmantharp
        • 7 years ago

        Man… I’ve been waiting for a 120Hz IPS display, and I’ve got a GTX670 in my gaming rig. I could give up a few vertical pixels on my HP ZR30w to use one of these, though I’d need another GTX670 to approach 120FPS (w/vsync) at 2560×1600!

        • Airmantharp
        • 7 years ago

        Also, if one of these were to become available through Fry’s or Newegg under $600, I’m fairly certain I’d jump on it. Hell, I’d probably go for three if I could get them locally, and sell my 30″ HP, and whatever else I could (other than my camera and my guns!) to afford them and the GPUs needed to power them!

        GTX690 SLi here I come, lol :).

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        There is a unlocker for AMD cards (all 5-7x series) so they can do 120hz.

          • Airmantharp
          • 7 years ago

          Now that’s cool… I’ll be using an HD5770 in my HTPC, so I wonder if my LG 55″ can accept a 120Hz input. It’s 3D, but passive 3D, so it may not.

            • insulin_junkie72
            • 7 years ago

            [quote<]so I wonder if my LG 55" can accept a 120Hz input[/quote<] TVs don't accept higher than 60hz input. I think there [i<]might[/i<] be a handful of projectors that can, but not "regular" TVs.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            In order to do the max supported output for Blu-ray 3D (with the newest HDMI protocol) they can’t not support 120Hz input. I doubt that’s a common feature, but it’s definitely in the specs.

            I’m just making the assumption that such TV’s exist somewhere :).

            • insulin_junkie72
            • 7 years ago

            Blu-ray 3D specs max out at 1080p24 per eye (48fps from the player).

            The HDMI specs do have 1080p60 per eye as *optional*, but no current TVs support that. Heck, an HDMI chip fast enough to pull that off has only been available for about a year.

            You can drop major $$$$$ on a Sharp Elite or a Sony 929, and you’re still going to be stuck w/ 60Hz input.

            • Airmantharp
            • 7 years ago

            As I was responding, that’s what I was thinking, thanks.

            The tech exists but it isn’t in anything yet, and as I think about it, I believe my LG does 3D in 720p only due to it’s passive nature. At least it was cheap and doesn’t mess with my eyes like the active crap does!

            • Bensam123
            • 7 years ago

            Unless you input from a computer to play games or the like, which completely circumvents this.

    • Dposcorp
    • 7 years ago

    One of the most entertaining reviews I have read in a long time; more like a short story.

    Also, getting in a cheap shot at Geoff is worth the price of admission. That is what he gets for not making it to a TR BBQ yet. 😉

    Thank you very much Damage; this was great, and I look forward to you ribbing Geoff on the next podcast.

    P.S.
    My local MicroCenter also has 10+ of the Auria EQ276W, which is really tempting me compared to yours Scott, due to these differences:

    HDCP Support Yes

    On-Screen Controls On screen displays allowing for calibration of contrast, color, saturation, and gamma

    Connectivity
    VGA 15-pin 1
    HDMI 1
    DVI 1
    Headphone Jack (1)
    What’s in the Box Monitor, VGA Cable, DVI Cable, Power Cord, Warranty Card,
    Manufacturer Warranty
    Warranty 1 year limited warranty

    So I would go from $337 to $424 after Tax with this deal, but for the increase, I would get more inputs, local return option, longer warranty and extended warranty option, ACTUAL ON-SCREEN DISPLAY 🙂 Seems worth it to me.
    (edits for grammar and spelling)

    Another edit:
    Reviewers on Microcenter are saying it has Display port…..now I really gotta stop and see one.

      • DragonDaddyBear
      • 7 years ago

      The DisplayPort is the most intersting thing to me about that monitor. If you don’t have a DisplaPort, then, as far as I know, you can’t drive three of these bad boys with one card (unless you have DP to DVI active/powered adapters). Thus, you can to go triple screen with this using only one video card… but then again, I doubt a single video card could drive three of these while gaming.

        • continuum
        • 7 years ago

        Ooooo, adding DP is definitely tempting…

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        Yeah, what I was looking for too. As far as my preferred interconnect goes, DP is up there.

        • mczak
        • 7 years ago

        Not only that but DP is also your only option of actually driving this monitor with intel’s IGP, since the dvi outputs are always single link (this is a chipset limitation), and hdmi won’t cut it neither (well, newer hdmi versions could do it but neither monitors nor graphic cards can usually do it). Well maybe with VGA but I wouldn’t want to try (though unfortunately most budget motherboards with intel chipsets actually don’t feature DisplayPort hence they simply cannot drive such monitors without using a dedicated graphic card).
        Nowadays with AMD graphic cards you can also only drive one such monitor over DVI (all new AMD cards only have one dual-link DVI port, the second one if any is single-link only). Sure you can get active DP->dual-link DVI adapter but these still cost more than an additional graphic card (nearly 100$).
        So imho DP is a must.

      • Airmantharp
      • 7 years ago

      The addition of HDCP and Displayport is welcome, but the addition of the OSD isn’t. If you need more than eyeball-level correction you should be using a colorimeter, which can be had for around $100.

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      Sounds great, but just bear in mind that the version you’re talking about uses a scaler and adds a bucketload of input lag – up to 40ms if its the same scaler as the rest of these Korean screens with the LG 27″ S-IPS.

      40ms is getting close to 3 full frames. Add vsync and that’s a gaming disaster. It’ll still be gorgeous for movies though.

        • Airmantharp
        • 7 years ago

        I agree (see the comment above yours), and this is also the reason why I champion HPs ZR30w over Dells U3011. People seem to like the ‘shinier’ Dell better though, with it’s main benefit being it’s expansive input array. I didn’t need those :).

        • Bensam123
        • 7 years ago

        Going to mirror this sentiment. I didn’t know that about the Auroia when I was looking at Scotts link. Good to know.

    • brucethemoose
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<] in various forum threads around the web, including our own here at TR and the apparent granddaddy of them all at Overclock.net [/quote<] [url<]http://www.overclock.net/t/1215866/reviewed-400-2560x1440-ips-no-ag-90hz-achieva-shimian-qh270-and-catleap-q270[/url<] Wow, never thought I'd see this on TR. I really need to get back to that thread... That said, mine's been running flawlessly since February, when I was the first to take the plunge. Buying a "Shimian QH270" from eBay seemed shady at the time, but ironically, it's lasted longer than my old Dell monitor.

      • drfish
      • 7 years ago

      Thanks Bruce! 🙂

    • derFunkenstein
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]The important thing to know about his opinion on this matter is that it's wrong[/quote<] I giggled.

      • MadManOriginal
      • 7 years ago

      You beat me to it.

      • drfish
      • 7 years ago

      Its so true though, I said as much in [url=https://techreport.com/discussions.x/23217?post=650955=<]my comment on the triple monitor gaming "review"[/url<].

      • DeadOfKnight
      • 7 years ago

      I love you, Scott.

      • JustAnEngineer
      • 7 years ago

      [quote=”Damage the tactful”<]Geoff said, in his recent article on triple-display gaming, that he'd rather have three smaller, two-megapixels displays than a single large monitor like this one. The important thing to know about his opinion on this matter is that it's wrong. He just hasn't spent enough quality time... [/quote<] I agree. While a multi-monitor setup is handy for productivity tasks, gaming is best done on a single large high-resolution display. If Eyefinity worked with a PLP arrangement, that might be pretty decent, but I'd still rather have all of the pixels behind a single continuous piece of glass.

    • UberGerbil
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]I have long been an advocate of glossy anti-glare coatings for laptops,[/quote<]Ok, that's just crazy talk. I guess it's nice if you're worried about people sneaking up behind you, but generally I prefer to see what I'm actually trying to work on without having to look past an image of myself and everything around me. I will never, ever, buy a display with a glossy coating. Glad to see you're starting to see the (non-reflected) light.

      • Damage
      • 7 years ago

      The best glossy coatings are pretty good at reducing glare. However, the best one I ever saw was on my old Sharp laptop many years back, which was in the pre-TN-dominance era. I swear, glossy coatings have gone downhill over time. Somebody must have found a way to squeeze 50 cents out of the costs that makes it more reflective. 😛

      Also, look, you put a TN panel behind a glossy coating, things get much worse because the panel has less color contrast, less light coming out at different viewing angles, and the the rest. A glossy IPS display fares much better.

        • DancinJack
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<]The best glossy coatings are pretty good at reducing glare.[/quote<] Maybe you meant minimizing? e: Sorry, I have never seen one of those glossy coatings that I liked. Had to give you a little crap.

      • David
      • 7 years ago

      This.

      I hate glossy coatings with a passion. The only reason I tolerate it on my tablets and phones is because I don’t have a choice.

      If I found one of these in matte I wouldn’t even ask the wife’s permission before buying.

        • sweatshopking
        • 7 years ago

        [quote<] If I found one of these in matte I wouldn't even ask the wife's permission before buying. [/quote<] Liar.

      • Parallax
      • 7 years ago

      I thought the glossy panel might be a problem, but bought one of these anyway. I could never go back to an anti-glare display after seeing this. It’s really that much clearer, and a joy to read things on.

      I looked at a NEC in person that uses the same panel, but with AG (just like Dell U2711), and it’s just so gritty looking I couldn’t read anything and images look like they have a ton of noise added to them.

      Ideally someone would manufacture a panel with an anti-reflection coating, rendering anti-glare obsolete without the disadvantage of reflections, but nobody seems to do this yet.

    • UberGerbil
    • 7 years ago

    [quote<]every pixel on a TN panel is a bad pixel.[/quote<] Preach it, brother.

      • DancinJack
      • 7 years ago

      Before I got an IPS panel I never would have thought it made that much of a difference. I was so, so wrong. It’s not enjoyable to sit down at a TN panel at work, family’s home, etc. Especially large ones. Eww.

      Go IPS!

        • indeego
        • 7 years ago

        I switch between 23″ IPS(home+DVI) and 24″ TN(work and analog!) and notice very little difference. I’m not gaming much anymore, however.

          • Airmantharp
          • 7 years ago

          I use TN, S-PVA, and IPS panels every day- and they all do their job just fine, within the known limitations. I’ll take a low input-lag IPS any day of the week of course.

            • Wirko
            • 7 years ago

            I use a S-PVA and a TN screen side by side. The TN is mostly for text, spreadsheets and other black and white material and it’s just ok. Switching over to my notebook, however, is a pain – it’s an older Elitebook with one very un-elite part, yes, the screen.

      • Chrispy_
      • 7 years ago

      It’s all about context;

      Every pixel on an IPS panel is a bad pixel for 120Hz or 3D, and it’s not going to display a black a deep as most TN screens.

      I’m an IPS convert already, but it’s by no means the ultimate panel technology. TN and S-PVA are superior to IPS in a number of different criteria.

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